Game Thread: Bengals vs. Niners

[cincygrad]

Isn't this the thing that got Taylor put under the microscope last year? Making Burrow throw so many times behind this oline? Everyone was praising this offense when it is balanced and Joe Mixon is running. If you don't keep defense honest, not all that passing game works. I would like to see a little more custom crafted game plans for certain teams instead of trying to use the same one for every team when it is only working against Pittsburgh. I do agree, we need to be more flexible with the play calling depending on situation and team, but overall, I really like Taylor's relationship with Burrow and how comfortable Burrow has gotten in his system and how much say so Burrow has in it. A new coach may not allow his young QB so much input like Taylor does.

However, I would really like to see Callahan put in charge of offensive play calling, and let Taylor manage the game with the onus on Burrow to make the corrections at the line if necessary.

Don't get me wrong - I do applaud some of the focus on the run in the right situations. And I don't think you should just throw it around for the sake of throwing it around. But Sunday was a bad showing for Taylor.... The Niners were hurting at DB and were begging us to run. Throwing it 50 times a game isn't going to work every week, but you have to be ready to do it if its the way to win.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Don't get me wrong - I do applaud some of the focus on the run in the right situations. And I don't think you should just throw it around for the sake of throwing it around. But Sunday was a bad showing for Taylor.... The Niners were hurting at DB and were begging us to run. Throwing it 50 times a game isn't going to work every week, but you have to be ready to do it if its the way to win.

Yep. Sometimes balance isn't just within the game, but within the season. That means some games you pass more, others you might run more. There have been a few games where it seems like the Bengals rushed more than passed, or passed minimally.

This was not one of those games. Joe was on fire, and SF's defense couldn't stop it.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Paging Joe Brady......

 

[cincygrad]

Get ready for an over-correction.... Zac is definitely coming out firing in Denver this weekend. By all accounts, if mistakes are limited, this should be a lower scoring game. I think our D can handle Denver's offense on a long field. This is probably the game where we should be more conservative, but instead we'll throw it at Denver's talented DBs and probably put ourselves in the hole due to some early picks.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Yep. Sometimes balance isn't just within the game, but within the season. That means some games you pass more, others you might run more. There have been a few games where it seems like the Bengals rushed more than passed, or passed minimally.

This was not one of those games. Joe was on fire, and SF's defense couldn't stop it.

Yes, but passing it that many times also gave guys like Bosa all the more reason to pin his hair back and go after Burrow full speed. Granted, Bosa is 100% all the time anyways, but it may call for a certain restraint in some calls. But if Burrow is slinging it 50 times, that is one more chance Burrow has at taking a massive hit.

Trust me, I was bitching at Taylor from my living room when we went down t he field like it was nothing on the 49ers secondary only to see him lay up and run twice for nothing forcing SF to blitz and bring pressure on a sure fired passing down. It was a mistake.

Consider this...

1. Phillips muffed punt cost the Bengals 3 points to start the game off.
2. Bengals placed the ball on the ground 4 times in the game, 2 by Phillips (lost both), 2 by Morgan (didn't lose either). Taylor had to place Boyd out there to fair catch shit.
3. Ridiculous taunting penalty cost the Bengals 7 points when they had SF stopped and was going to get the ball back before half.
4. McPhearson missed a FG, probably his worst miss yet on his young career, wasn't really close.
5. Jesse Bates dropped a gift wrapped pick 6 with seconds left to go in the game that would have sealed a win for the Bengals.
6. Bengals drive the first 2/3 of the field with ease in overtime and basically call it quits and lay up a FG to hopefully win.
7. Bengals defense played zone in that game losing drive that saw Kittle carve them up with soft coverage in zone.

All of that, and we lost by 3 fn points. The Bengals were clearly the better team in that game, but shot themselves in the foot way too many times to compensate against a professional football team. It is encouraging, regardless of the results, that we have the fire power to overcome and compete even when the whole damn team is shitting the bed except Burrow.

It was nice to see Higgins and Chase involved so much.

Hopefully Henrickson is not hurt badly and can play this week. I would like to see him keep his streak alive. Having all our DB's healthy could be a real boost considering we are maybe missing our top or second best player on defense for the year, Wilson.

 

[cincygrad]

Yes, but passing it that many times also gave guys like Bosa all the more reason to pin his hair back and go after Burrow full speed. Granted, Bosa is 100% all the time anyways, but it may call for a certain restraint in some calls. But if Burrow is slinging it 50 times, that is one more chance Burrow has at taking a massive hit.

Trust me, I was bitching at Taylor from my living room when we went down t he field like it was nothing on the 49ers secondary only to see him lay up and run twice for nothing forcing SF to blitz and bring pressure on a sure fired passing down. It was a mistake.

Consider this...

1. Phillips muffed punt cost the Bengals 3 points to start the game off.
2. Bengals placed the ball on the ground 4 times in the game, 2 by Phillips (lost both), 2 by Morgan (didn't lose either). Taylor had to place Boyd out there to fair catch shit.
3. Ridiculous taunting penalty cost the Bengals 7 points when they had SF stopped and was going to get the ball back before half.
4. McPhearson missed a FG, probably his worst miss yet on his young career, wasn't really close.
5. Jesse Bates dropped a gift wrapped pick 6 with seconds left to go in the game that would have sealed a win for the Bengals.
6. Bengals drive the first 2/3 of the field with ease in overtime and basically call it quits and lay up a FG to hopefully win.
7. Bengals defense played zone in that game losing drive that saw Kittle carve them up with soft coverage in zone.

All of that, and we lost by 3 fn points. The Bengals were clearly the better team in that game, but shot themselves in the foot way too many times to compensate against a professional football team. It is encouraging, regardless of the results, that we have the fire power to overcome and compete even when the whole damn team is shitting the bed except Burrow.

It was nice to see Higgins and Chase involved so much.

Hopefully Henrickson is not hurt badly and can play this week. I would like to see him keep his streak alive. Having all our DB's healthy could be a real boost considering we are maybe missing our top or second best player on defense for the year, Wilson.

I agree with what you post - Ridiculous shit happened and we could have won anyway. That's pretty much been the case all season. The Browns are really the only team that laid the smack down on us and you could still argue that that game is completely different without the 99 yard pick 6.

But at some point you have to acknowledge that you are what your record says you are. And Zac Taylor's record in one score games is abysmal. He's also never won a game that he was losing entering the 4th quarter. I think he has built a good program here in Cincinnati. Clearly the guys play hard and there is very little drama coming out of the lockeroom. I just wish he would find solutions to some of his "in-game" issues.... To me, it's still not clear that he has a plan. He started the year with the idea that he was going to be aggressive... It almost backfired in game 1 and he's dropped it ever since.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I

Yes, but passing it that many times also gave guys like Bosa all the more reason to pin his hair back and go after Burrow full speed. Granted, Bosa is 100% all the time anyways, but it may call for a certain restraint in some calls. But if Burrow is slinging it 50 times, that is one more chance Burrow has at taking a massive hit.

Trust me, I was bitching at Taylor from my living room when we went down t he field like it was nothing on the 49ers secondary only to see him lay up and run twice for nothing forcing SF to blitz and bring pressure on a sure fired passing down. It was a mistake.

Consider this...

1. Phillips muffed punt cost the Bengals 3 points to start the game off.
2. Bengals placed the ball on the ground 4 times in the game, 2 by Phillips (lost both), 2 by Morgan (didn't lose either). Taylor had to place Boyd out there to fair catch shit.
3. Ridiculous taunting penalty cost the Bengals 7 points when they had SF stopped and was going to get the ball back before half.
4. McPhearson missed a FG, probably his worst miss yet on his young career, wasn't really close.
5. Jesse Bates dropped a gift wrapped pick 6 with seconds left to go in the game that would have sealed a win for the Bengals.
6. Bengals drive the first 2/3 of the field with ease in overtime and basically call it quits and lay up a FG to hopefully win.
7. Bengals defense played zone in that game losing drive that saw Kittle carve them up with soft coverage in zone.

All of that, and we lost by 3 fn points. The Bengals were clearly the better team in that game, but shot themselves in the foot way too many times to compensate against a professional football team. It is encouraging, regardless of the results, that we have the fire power to overcome and compete even when the whole damn team is shitting the bed except Burrow.

It was nice to see Higgins and Chase involved so much.

Hopefully Henrickson is not hurt badly and can play this week. I would like to see him keep his streak alive. Having all our DB's healthy could be a real boost considering we are maybe missing our top or second best player on defense for the year, Wilson.

I acknowledge all the other things that led into the loss...

But specifically, looking at just OT - why would you stop throwing it? The DB's could not keep up. They were already banged up, lost another guy, and were gasping for air. The defense was just baiting the offense to run the ball - and ZT fell for it several times.

I agree, you have to balance the run/pass, but you also have to play to what is working at the time. You can't simply have a QB dicing up the defense, and look back at your play chart and go "Well, we're going to pass it too much, so better call a run here". That's...dumb.

Balance should come throughout the entire game, not just in one section, but if you get to an area where the defense doesn't stop a play call, or an approach...you keep hammering away at the weak spot until they either fix it, opening up another area, or you score. They got into FG range, and ZT's nuts shrank up.

Say what you will about the rest of the game, but with the game on the line, and the win within grasp - ZT's play-calling (self admittedly) was head-scratching, at the very least. The other issue is - this isn't the first time he's said that about his own play calling. I'm all for being honest and taking accountability, but doing so only means something if you actually fix what's wrong. To this point, he has not.

 

[DanBengalfan]

I’m numb to it all. First build the foundation, and then you can have fun things like chase. The oline problem didn’t just start this year

 

[cincygrad]

I’m numb to it all. First build the foundation, and then you can have fun things like chase. The oline problem didn’t just start this year

Paul Dehner of The Athletic had a very interesting article yesterday. Basically he showed that teams have almost completely stopped playing man coverage on the Bengals. And the reason they have done this is that Burrow has absolutely destroyed it anytime someone has tried. His numbers against man coverage are staggering.

It's pretty clear that the way to beat the Bengals right now is to play a deep zone, rush 4 (maybe bring one late), live with some damage from the run game and wait for the big mistake.

Burrow is terrific. If (and it's a big If), this team would finally solve the offensive line issues, they would be a serious problem.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I’m numb to it all. First build the foundation, and then you can have fun things like chase. The oline problem didn’t just start this year

And I go back to what I said before, and repeatedly:

How ANY franchise who drafts a QB like Burrow, did not address the OL that very year, and the next, is beyond me. Malpractice. You have spent a high 1st round pick on a "Franchise" QB, and then failed to protect him in the most basic way.

Criminal.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Paul Dehner of The Athletic had a very interesting article yesterday. Basically he showed that teams have almost completely stopped playing man coverage on the Bengals. And the reason they have done this is that Burrow has absolutely destroyed it anytime someone has tried. His numbers against man coverage are staggering.

It's pretty clear that the way to beat the Bengals right now is to play a deep zone, rush 4 (maybe bring one late), live with some damage from the run game and wait for the big mistake.

Burrow is terrific. If (and it's a big If), this team would finally solve the offensive line issues, they would be a serious problem.

That is interesting to know, So what kind of game calling do you need to do to help Burrow beat the deep zone? If they are only blitzing four, and maybe bringing the 5th, then the 5 olineman should be able to handle and pass off blocks to each other with 4 rushers, and the RB, Mixon be the safety valve for the 5th blitzer. 4 deep should lend itself to a lot of quick underneath crossing routes and let your playmakers make plays, like Chase did against Baltimore, or Tee did against the 49ers in overtime. We should spend a little more time throwing to the TE on those zones like Kittle and Kelce did in the last several days. I know Uzomah is not in the same ballpark as those guys, but he is not worthless.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Paul Dehner of The Athletic had a very interesting article yesterday. Basically he showed that teams have almost completely stopped playing man coverage on the Bengals. And the reason they have done this is that Burrow has absolutely destroyed it anytime someone has tried. His numbers against man coverage are staggering.

It's pretty clear that the way to beat the Bengals right now is to play a deep zone, rush 4 (maybe bring one late), live with some damage from the run game and wait for the big mistake.

Burrow is terrific. If (and it's a big If), this team would finally solve the offensive line issues, they would be a serious problem.

Yeah, you can't keep up with Chase, Boyd, Higgins in man. One of the 3 get open way too quickly. Burrow reads the blitz so well, the ball is out before they can get home too often.

But, in zone, while given enough time, Burrow will pick apart, that is the caveat...the OL can't hold up against 4 rushers long enough.

41 sacks leads the NFL.

 

[Cincyfan78]

That is interesting to know, So what kind of game calling do you need to do to help Burrow beat the deep zone? If they are only blitzing four, and maybe bringing the 5th, then the 5 olineman should be able to handle and pass off blocks to each other with 4 rushers, and the RB, Mixon be the safety valve for the 5th blitzer. 4 deep should lend itself to a lot of quick underneath crossing routes and let your playmakers make plays, like Chase did against Baltimore, or Tee did against the 49ers in overtime. We should spend a little more time throwing to the TE on those zones like Kittle and Kelce did in the last several days. I know Uzomah is not in the same ballpark as those guys, but he is not worthless.

You would think that the OL could handle it....they can't. That's the issue. Given time, Burrow would clearly, and does, pick apart the zone. The OL just doesn't hold up.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

And I go back to what I said before, and repeatedly:

How ANY franchise who drafts a QB like Burrow, did not address the OL that very year, and the next, is beyond me. Malpractice. You have spent a high 1st round pick on a "Franchise" QB, and then failed to protect him in the most basic way.

Criminal.

What is criminal is a player like Joe Thuney getting $85 million. That is insane. Very glad the Bengals didn't do that.

Also, I would also argue that there is no way I am giving up Tee Higgins or Ja'Marr Chase in favor of an offensive lineman. Do I want a good offensive line? Very much so. Would I give up either of those guys for it? No way in hell. Now, we can talk about signing oline in free agency, but if you are going to talk about Joe Thuney type contracts, that shit can keep walking too.

I think with the way we are building this team, we want a good offensive lineman, but I think they have to be quality contracts for the organization in free agency, or we are signing them through the draft. I would argue, I am not 100% sold on drafting oline in the 1st round this next year if the right CB falls to us in round 1. They seem to really like Adenji at RG. They are supposedly wanting to groom Carmen for RT. I think we can definitely use a good center and LG depending on Spain and is production. Hell you have no idea if Carmen can make the transition to RT, but I am not opposed to them trying to build it.

I am not opposed to us spending some money on the offensive line, I just don't want to overpay for them either at that position. I would rather pay the skill positions and defense.

 

[Cincyfan78]

What is criminal is a player like Joe Thuney getting $85 million. That is insane. Very glad the Bengals didn't do that.

Also, I would also argue that there is no way I am giving up Tee Higgins or Ja'Marr Chase in favor of an offensive lineman. Do I want a good offensive line? Very much so. Would I give up either of those guys for it? No way in hell. Now, we can talk about signing oline in free agency, but if you are going to talk about Joe Thuney type contracts, that shit can keep walking too.

I think with the way we are building this team, we want a good offensive lineman, but I think they have to be quality contracts for the organization in free agency, or we are signing them through the draft. I would argue, I am not 100% sold on drafting oline in the 1st round this next year if the right CB falls to us in round 1. They seem to really like Adenji at RG. They are supposedly wanting to groom Carmen for RT. I think we can definitely use a good center and LG depending on Spain and is production. Hell you have no idea if Carmen can make the transition to RT, but I am not opposed to them trying to build it.

I am not opposed to us spending some money on the offensive line, I just don't want to overpay for them either at that position. I would rather pay the skill positions and defense.

They had TWO off-seasons to fix it, and TWO drafts. And, the draft is a bit of a crapshoot, and takes 2-3 years at times to figure out if picks were good or not, but not in F/A - you know who can do what, and how they fit. The Bengals did great at spending on the defense, but completely ignored the offense.

I'm not saying throw around Thuney money, but they could have brought Zietler back, no? Could have made moves in the same off-season they KNEW they were getting a Franchise QB. They also knew there starting C was coming off an ACL - yet didn't get a proper backup. Hopkins was average prior to his contract, and had 1 nice year. Coming off an injury, they didn't think it was important to find a suitable backup - just in case? Hopkins has been poor this year, and the RG position has been in constant flux because they are putting their eggs in a 5th round pick from last year, a F/A who isn't any better when healthy, and a 2nd round pick - who may, or may not, be able to play IOL, or play RT - but can't even beat out a late draft pick from the prior year at RT to backup an injured Reif, or another late round pick at RG.

Look, I'm not one to just dog on the Bengals FO, I think, at times, they get a bad wrap. But how ANYONE could defend the approach they took to this OL is beyond me. You cannot defend it. Especially considering this has been an issue going on for 3+ years now. They've tried rebuilding through the draft, and with lower F/A and have failed time after time. Spain has been the only move that has worked, and Williams at LT has been solid. But then they failed to do anything else with the rest of the line taking the same old patch-work approach. Meanwhile, you have a potential All-Pro QB leading the NFL, again, in sacks.

 

[cincygrad]

You would think that the OL could handle it....they can't. That's the issue. Given time, Burrow would clearly, and does, pick apart the zone. The OL just doesn't hold up.

Exactly.... I think what showed in the Niners game is that you have to attack the deep corners of these zones. They will take away the short/fast throw and they will take away the long pass. The reason Higgins has been eating so much is that he is great in the intermediate game. But, the intermediate game takes time to pass. If they get home with four before the route develops, there is nothing we can do. Even against the Niners, some of Burrow's best throws in those final drives came a split second before he was hit. It's such a fine line - And I think this is why the sack and INT numbers are what they are.

Lets see what Denver does - They play man more than any team in the league.

 

[Cincyfan78]

And now Reiff is expected to be out for the year.

Prince will be the 1st man up, but they need to get Carmen up to speed at RT to see if he's going to work out. One of the worst things this franchise has done is evaluate, honestly, where guys are at from the draft. They keep guys and bank on them despite knowing they've not been good (See Cedric and Fisher).

 

[cincygrad]

And now Reiff is expected to be out for the year.

Prince will be the 1st man up, but they need to get Carmen up to speed at RT to see if he's going to work out. One of the worst things this franchise has done is evaluate, honestly, where guys are at from the draft. They keep guys and bank on them despite knowing they've not been good (See Cedric and Fisher).

I can't figure out what they are doing on the line. They have Ajjendi playing guard even though he played tackle last year. They have Carman playing guard after playing tackle in college. They have D'Ante Smith available off of injury and he would be a logical RT and showed some potential in preseason, but I think they are more considering him a guard for the time being. Is everyone playing in the right place? Is Prince really the best option?

 

[CrashDavisSports]

They had TWO off-seasons to fix it, and TWO drafts. And, the draft is a bit of a crapshoot, and takes 2-3 years at times to figure out if picks were good or not, but not in F/A - you know who can do what, and how they fit. The Bengals did great at spending on the defense, but completely ignored the offense.

I'm not saying throw around Thuney money, but they could have brought Zietler back, no? Could have made moves in the same off-season they KNEW they were getting a Franchise QB. They also knew there starting C was coming off an ACL - yet didn't get a proper backup. Hopkins was average prior to his contract, and had 1 nice year. Coming off an injury, they didn't think it was important to find a suitable backup - just in case? Hopkins has been poor this year, and the RG position has been in constant flux because they are putting their eggs in a 5th round pick from last year, a F/A who isn't any better when healthy, and a 2nd round pick - who may, or may not, be able to play IOL, or play RT - but can't even beat out a late draft pick from the prior year at RT to backup an injured Reif, or another late round pick at RG.

Look, I'm not one to just dog on the Bengals FO, I think, at times, they get a bad wrap. But how ANYONE could defend the approach they took to this OL is beyond me. You cannot defend it. Especially considering this has been an issue going on for 3+ years now. They've tried rebuilding through the draft, and with lower F/A and have failed time after time. Spain has been the only move that has worked, and Williams at LT has been solid. But then they failed to do anything else with the rest of the line taking the same old patch-work approach. Meanwhile, you have a potential All-Pro QB leading the NFL, again, in sacks.

I think they will have a better handle on it this year. I think they have a load of young guys with potential to be good players, but it is still unrealized talent.

They have drafted 7 offensive lineman in the last 3 years. They signed Spain, Sua-Filo and Reiff in recent FA. So in the last 3 years they have tried to add 10 players to the offensive line.

I would have liked to have seen them add Zeitler back, but you don't know the situation there, he may have not wanted anything to do with Cincinnati unless they were willing to overpay based on the past history. He took only $22.5 million over 3 years. That is a really good deal. You think the Bengals could have offered up same if not a bit more for that reasonable of a contract. For them to not be involved at all, had to be something there.

1st rounder and one free agent who is reasonable like Zeitler's contract sounds like what the Bengals need, along with young guys starting to develop.

ZT's obvious idea of building a team is more free agency for defense with some draft picks to groom, and an offense revolving around drafted talent with affordable free agent here or there.

Free agency = defense
Offense = draft

In his system.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I think they will have a better handle on it this year. I think they have a load of young guys with potential to be good players, but it is still unrealized talent.

They have drafted 7 offensive lineman in the last 3 years. They signed Spain, Sua-Filo and Reiff in recent FA. So in the last 3 years they have tried to add 10 players to the offensive line.

I would have liked to have seen them add Zeitler back, but you don't know the situation there, he may have not wanted anything to do with Cincinnati unless they were willing to overpay based on the past history. He took only $22.5 million over 3 years. That is a really good deal. You think the Bengals could have offered up same if not a bit more for that reasonable of a contract. For them to not be involved at all, had to be something there.

1st rounder and one free agent who is reasonable like Zeitler's contract sounds like what the Bengals need, along with young guys starting to develop.

ZT's obvious idea of building a team is more free agency for defense with some draft picks to groom, and an offense revolving around drafted talent with affordable free agent here or there.

Free agency = defense
Offense = draft

In his system.

Both Sua and Spain were cheap.

Spend. The. Money.

Protect. The. Franchise.


That's the end of the story. Period. If they spent money and it didn't work, that's one thing. But for 2 years, they've continued to go the cheap route.