April 1st or Doval is real

[filosofy29]

Edit: fixed link. Filo, when you post a link to X, you need to change “x.com” to “Twitter.com” to make the link work. cal

 

[Stokes1931]

Doval, Giants' struggling All-Star closer, optioned to Triple-A

All-Star closer Camilo Doval was optioned to Triple-A Sacramento on Friday, a day after he blew another save in the San Francisco Giants’ win on Thursday.

www.nbcsportsbayarea.com

From the article:

The Giants might view this as a chance for Doval to work on his command, but optioning a closer back to the minors instead of demoting him to another role is rare, and it seems there's more at play here. Doval frustrated the Gabe Kapler regime with his lack of attention to detail, and Melvin has seemingly gotten fed up, too.

Walker has been the team's best reliever this season and seems the likely choice to pitch the ninth. Jordan Hicks has closing experience, too, and his velocity is back up to the upper nineties since the Giants moved him back to the bullpen.

In addition to optioning Doval, the Giants also sent catcher Jakson Reetz to Sacramento. Veteran backstop Curt Casali was reinstated from the Paternity List and right-handed pitcher Landen Roupp was recalled from Triple-A.

 

[sf1giantfan]

I fully approved of this move. Hopefully Doval realizes he has to get his act together and will do everything he can to approve to what he was once before.

 

[LHG]

Doval, Giants' struggling All-Star closer, optioned to Triple-A

All-Star closer Camilo Doval was optioned to Triple-A Sacramento on Friday, a day after he blew another save in the San Francisco Giants’ win on Thursday.

www.nbcsportsbayarea.com

From the article:

The Giants might view this as a chance for Doval to work on his command, but optioning a closer back to the minors instead of demoting him to another role is rare, and it seems there's more at play here. Doval frustrated the Gabe Kapler regime with his lack of attention to detail, and Melvin has seemingly gotten fed up, too.

Walker has been the team's best reliever this season and seems the likely choice to pitch the ninth. Jordan Hicks has closing experience, too, and his velocity is back up to the upper nineties since the Giants moved him back to the bullpen.

In addition to optioning Doval, the Giants also sent catcher Jakson Reetz to Sacramento. Veteran backstop Curt Casali was reinstated from the Paternity List and right-handed pitcher Landen Roupp was recalled from Triple-A.

I wasn't surprised to see him removed from the closer's role but the option was surprising.

However, it should get his attention if his process (or lack thereof) has frustrated two very different managers.

 

[stanford the manford]

This may be just who Doval is. I don't think it's a physical issue, seems like its more of a focus thing. Maybe he can and maybe he can't move to the next level.

He should be our long term closer and hopefully they'll find the key to move him to an elite level

 

[Stokes1931]

Melvin shares two reasons why Giants optioned Doval to Triple-A

Manager Bob Melvin and the San Francisco Giants want Camilo Doval to work on two specific things during his minor-league assignment in Triple-A Sacramento.

www.nbcsportsbayarea.com

The demotion of 2023 All-Star closer Camilo Doval is all because of two reasons, Giants manager Bob Melvin says: Command and being quicker to the plate.

“The strike throwing is an issue right now, so is time to the plate,” Melvin said Friday in the Oracle Park dugout a half hour after Doval was optioned to Triple-A Sacramento. “He can be better than he is right now, and I think he’ll be better served to be able to work on it where it’s not at the big league level in a different role.”

 

[SF11704]

Most of you are probably to young to remember a pitcher named Steve Blass. He pitched fot the Pirates. In 1972 he went 19-8 with a. 2.49 ERA. In 1973 he lost all ability to control his pitchers. This was his 9th year in the NL. He never regained his control and retired the following year. . They actually named this the Steve Blass disease. Doval is not at this level but as some of you already stated ... I don't think the issue is physical. Somewhere along the way he has lost the mental edge to his game. Of all the various pitching positions ... I feel that the mental make up of a closer is much different than any other pitcher ... you have to embrace the pressure and your focus has to be unwavering ... neither of which I think Doval can do at the moment. I also think that these are traits you don't learn. They are part of who you are.

 

[LHG]

Most of you are probably to young to remember a pitcher named Steve Blass. He pitched fot the Pirates. In 1972 he went 19-8 with a. 2.49 ERA. In 1973 he lost all ability to control his pitchers. This was his 9th year in the NL. He never regained his control and retired the following year. . They actually named this the Steve Blass disease. Doval is not at this level but as some of you already stated ... I don't think the issue is physical. Somewhere along the way he has lost the mental edge to his game. Of all the various pitching positions ... I feel that the mental make up of a closer is much different than any other pitcher ... you have to embrace the pressure and your focus has to be unwavering ... neither of which I think Doval can do at the moment. I also think that these are traits you don't learn. They are part of who you are.

Which is probably why you don't see many long term successful closers and makes guys like Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman and Lee Smith a bit underrated when just viewing their success by career WAR.

 

[calsnowskier]

Which is probably why you don't see many long term successful closers and makes guys like Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman and Lee Smith a bit underrated when just viewing their success by career WAR.

Personally, I only look at WAR for pitchers when I am doin quick summaries of Drafts. There are enough other effective metrics for pitchers (imho) that WAR just doesn’t cut it.

Games
IP
ERA
ERA+
FIP
WHIP
K/9
Holds (a MUCH better stat than Saves, btw)
…

 

[LHG]

Personally, I only look at WAR for pitchers when I am doin quick summaries of Drafts. There are enough other effective metrics for pitchers (imho) that WAR just doesn’t cut it.

Games
IP
ERA
ERA+
FIP
WHIP
K/9
Holds (a MUCH better stat than Saves, btw)
…

I know that holds are underrated as a stat but I'm not sure I see that as much better than saves. Essentially, I think they should be considered equal.

 

[calsnowskier]

I know that holds are underrated as a stat but I'm not sure I see that as much better than saves. Essentially, I think they should be considered equal.

Fair. I guess I was exaggerating because the hold is actually hard to find today (is it even an official stat anymore?)

 

[LHG]

Fair. I guess I was exaggerating because the hold is actually hard to find today (is it even an official stat anymore?)

I think so. I'm in a fantasy league that uses the hold as a counting stat.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think so. I'm in a fantasy league that uses the hold as a counting stat.

What is the source for the stat? BBRef doesn’t show that stat (on the main player page, at least)

 

[SF11704]

Holds are interesting and really need to looked at in a different light ... you enter the 7th inning with a 4-1 lead .. a middle inning reliever comes in and by the end of the inning the score is tied 4-4.. you take a 5-4 lead in the top of the 9th. Your closer wnters the game and gives up a 2 run HR. You lose. Most people just look at the cliser,'s failue and foget the the middle relief gave up 3 runs in the 7th. Couldb't hold and could't save.

 

[LHG]

What is the source for the stat? BBRef doesn’t show that stat (on the main player page, at least)

Interesting. I've not noticed that BBRef doesn't show that stat.
The league I'm in is through ESPN so I assume that track that.
MLB.com also seems to track holds.

https://www.mlb.com/player/ryan-walker-676254

 

[calsnowskier]

Holds are interesting and really need to looked at in a different light ... you enter the 7th inning with a 4-1 lead .. a middle inning reliever comes in and by the end of the inning the score is tied 4-4.. you take a 5-4 lead in the top of the 9th. Your closer wnters the game and gives up a 2 run HR. You lose. Most people just look at the cliser,'s failue and foget the the middle relief gave up 3 runs in the 7th. Couldb't hold and could't save.

Saves are arguably more powerful. The opposing team is going to throwing the kitchen sink at you in the 9th. That isn’t quite the case in the 7th. And there is the mental aspect to the 9th that exists but cannot be absolutely measured.

But preserving the 1-run lead is important in the 7th. It is important in the 8th. It isn’t ONLY important in the 9th.

When you blow it in the 7th, they don’t call it a “blown hold”. They call it a “blown save”. So even the converse stat acknowledges the importance of the situation.

 

[SF11704]

Saves are arguably more powerful. The opposing team is going to throwing the kitchen sink at you in the 9th. That isn’t quite the case in the 7th. And there is the mental aspect to the 9th that exists but cannot be absolutely measured.

But preserving the 1-run lead is important in the 7th. It is important in the 8th. It isn’t ONLY important in the 9th.

When you blow it in the 7th, they don’t call it a “blown hold”. They call it a “blown save”. So even the converse stat acknowledges the importance of the situation.

I agree. A save by a closer is a much different animal. A closer is a much different type of pitcher. My only point was that in many cases a closer never sees rhe 9th inning because rhe middle relief couldn't hold the lead and that fact is usually lost by most fans. When a closer loses the game it is ALWAYS in dramatic fashion. When the middle relief loses a game it's usually just called a shitshow.. Same result though.

 

[sf1giantfan]

I remember Steve Blass, and if I remember correctly he was their ace, having a few prior good seasons before the famous Steve Blass crash. I always looked it as a total mental breakdown without him admitting it. If you think about it we all have our bad days, little things can get us off track and bother us enough to distract or ruin our day or production at work. For him it could have been small but it grew or it was something big like fear he never could get away from and it ruined him. Poor guy.

I have had concerns with Doval for a couple seasons now, never feeling confident he was good enough to be our closer anymore. I mentioned it a few times in the beginning of the season but got my head chomped off so I held back hoping that he would find his way. Unfortunately as the season progressed I could see at least to me he just didn’t have what he had before. I’m glad they finally removed him as the closer, little surprised they sent him down but I’m sure they saw a lot more than we did and they know better.

 

[SF11704]

I remember Steve Blass, and if I remember correctly he was their ace, having a few prior good seasons before the famous Steve Blass crash. I always looked it as a total mental breakdown without him admitting it. If you think about it we all have our bad days, little things can get us off track and bother us enough to distract or ruin our day or production at work. For him it could have been small but it grew or it was something big like fear he never could get away from and it ruined him. Poor guy.

I have had concerns with Doval for a couple seasons now, never feeling confident he was good enough to be our closer anymore. I mentioned it a few times in the beginning of the season but got my head chomped off so I held back hoping that he would find his way. Unfortunately as the season progressed I could see at least to me he just didn’t have what he had before. I’m glad they finally removed him as the closer, little surprised they sent him down but I’m sure they saw a lot more than we did and they know better.

Wow ... if you remember Steve Blass ... and you do from what you wrote (he Was their ace) you are quite a bit older than I would have thought! Not many people here would have any idea who he was.

And I agree with your take on things. I also think he just had a complete mental breakdown and that actually ended his career the following year. Also agree with your take on Doval. He wasn't what he was two years ago. Something has happened and I don't think it's physical. Closers are a strange breed of pitchers. They seem to thrive under pressure and actually look forward to the challenge. I think Doval lost that edge somewhere along the way.

 

[sf1giantfan]

Wow ... if you remember Steve Blass ... and you do from what you wrote (he Was their ace) you are quite a bit older than I would have thought! Not many people here would have any idea who he was.

And I agree with your take on things. I also think he just had a complete mental breakdown and that actually ended his career the following year. Also agree with your take on Doval. He wasn't what he was two years ago. Something has happened and I don't think it's physical. Closers are a strange breed of pitchers. They seem to thrive under pressure and actually look forward to the challenge. I think Doval lost that edge somewhere along the way.

I probably have a winkled baseball card of Blass somewhere. I have been a fan of baseball since I was a baby. So not only being a giant fan I’m a fan of baseball. So guys like Blass has stuck out, he was really good, he was the Pirates Bob Gibson. I was a toddler back in the day but grew up reading about the pitchers who would not only pitch a complete game but would do so 20-30 times a year.