ANYBODY WANT TO DEFEND BEVELL NOW????

[chf]

Not to defend the call, but if Kearse does his job on the play at worse its an incomplete.

Both Browner and Butler made excellent plays.

 

[WizardHawk]

We now know that Carroll told Bevell to pass. No longer debatable. So of course the first people calling for Bevell's head have changed from "It's dumb not to use the greatest back in the league, fire him!" to "It was the wrong pass call, fire him!". The mantra changes to suit the information changes as they occur.

There are 40 seconds between plays, but you can't go to 40 or you get a flag right? So you have 39 maximum to get a play off. Further, the league shuts off the headset to the QB after 25 seconds unless that has changed.

We know Seattle changed personnel and went to a 1 back 1 TE 3 WR set. No idea how long that took, but then NE sent out their subs. After that point Carroll says into his headset to pass. Maybe 10-12 seconds in? So now Bevell has at most 10 seconds to call a play and get it to Wilson. He has no choice but to call what that situation calls for on their planning sheets.

If you listened to Carroll's interview on the Today show yesterday he was clear in saying they did exactly what they prepared for and ran the plays they had practiced for their plans.

A few things though, it wasn't a slant. Holmgren calls it a 'double under' and says there's a sort of hitch/component to it that makes it not an actual slant so those calling it that are not entirely right. Every break down shows why it's not accurate to call it 'throwing into the teeth of the defense'. It's 2 on 2 out on an island. No safety or LB support of any kind. It's 2 WR's v 2 corners. PERIOD. The play worked against Denver and has worked at other times. If Kearse does his job it's a walk in TD. If Lockette does a better job going to the ball it's at least not an INT and could be a TD. If Wilson has a better throw it's either a drop or a TD. The only way that play ends as it does is if the rub doesn't go off at all and the other DB jumps the route, basically selling out to stop what he thinks might be the play. If he's wrong it's an uncontested TD.

Give ALL of the credit on that to belicheck and his staff for doing their homework and actually practicing against that very play and to both corners for doing an outstanding job of breaking it up.

 

[BoBlake]

We now know that Carroll told Bevell to pass. No longer debatable. So of course the first people calling for Bevell's head have changed from "It's dumb not to use the greatest back in the league, fire him!" to "It was the wrong pass call, fire him!". The mantra changes to suit the information changes as they occur.

There are 40 seconds between plays, but you can't go to 40 or you get a flag right? So you have 39 maximum to get a play off. Further, the league shuts off the headset to the QB after 25 seconds unless that has changed.

We know Seattle changed personnel and went to a 1 back 1 TE 3 WR set. No idea how long that took, but then NE sent out their subs. After that point Carroll says into his headset to pass. Maybe 10-12 seconds in? So now Bevell has at most 10 seconds to call a play and get it to Wilson. He has no choice but to call what that situation calls for on their planning sheets.

If you listened to Carroll's interview on the Today show yesterday he was clear in saying they did exactly what they prepared for and ran the plays they had practiced for their plans.

A few things though, it wasn't a slant. Holmgren calls it a 'double under' and says there's a sort of hitch/component to it that makes it not an actual slant so those calling it that are not entirely right. Every break down shows why it's not accurate to call it 'throwing into the teeth of the defense'. It's 2 on 2 out on an island. No safety or LB support of any kind. It's 2 WR's v 2 corners. PERIOD. The play worked against Denver and has worked at other times. If Kearse does his job it's a walk in TD. If Lockette does a better job going to the ball it's at least not an INT and could be a TD. If Wilson has a better throw it's either a drop or a TD. The only way that play ends as it does is if the rub doesn't go off at all and the other DB jumps the route, basically selling out to stop what he thinks might be the play. If he's wrong it's an uncontested TD.

Give ALL of the credit on that to belicheck and his staff for doing their homework and actually practicing against that very play and to both corners for doing an outstanding job of breaking it up.

FIRE PETE CARROLL!!!! [waves pitchfork] [throws away SBXLVIII jersey] [stomps foot aggressively]

PETE HAS ALWAYS HELD THIS TEAM BACK. HE SHOULD BE AXED!

 

[BHF]

We now know that Carroll told Bevell to pass. No longer debatable. So of course the first people calling for Bevell's head have changed from "It's dumb not to use the greatest back in the league, fire him!" to "It was the wrong pass call, fire him!". The mantra changes to suit the information changes as they occur.

Fail. People were saying that if not the night of the game. Certainly the next morning. Seriously, dude. Why do you keep trying to tell us what we said when the opposite is available for everyone to see?

There are 40 seconds between plays, but you can't go to 40 or you get a flag right? So you have 39 maximum to get a play off. Further, the league shuts off the headset to the QB after 25 seconds unless that has changed.

We know Seattle changed personnel and went to a 1 back 1 TE 3 WR set. No idea how long that took, but then NE sent out their subs. After that point Carroll says into his headset to pass. Maybe 10-12 seconds in? So now Bevell has at most 10 seconds to call a play and get it to Wilson. He has no choice but to call what that situation calls for on their planning sheets.

If you listened to Carroll's interview on the Today show yesterday he was clear in saying they did exactly what they prepared for and ran the plays they had practiced for their plans.

Pretty sure we're all on the same page here, but I took from the interview that PC told Bevell from jump to call a pass there, thus the 11 package. But I could have misunderstood.

A few things though, it wasn't a slant. Holmgren calls it a 'double under' and says there's a sort of hitch/component to it that makes it not an actual slant so those calling it that are not entirely right. Every break down shows why it's not accurate to call it 'throwing into the teeth of the defense'. It's 2 on 2 out on an island. No safety or LB support of any kind. It's 2 WR's v 2 corners. PERIOD. The play worked against Denver and has worked at other times. If Kearse does his job it's a walk in TD. If Lockette does a better job going to the ball it's at least not an INT and could be a TD. If Wilson has a better throw it's either a drop or a TD. The only way that play ends as it does is if the rub doesn't go off at all and the other DB jumps the route, basically selling out to stop what he thinks might be the play. If he's wrong it's an uncontested TD.

The play type is a double under. The route is a fake move to the outside like he is going for a corner fade, cutting inside on a slat, into an eight man box that Wilson's pass still needs to clear. And that's one the problems. At his height (more correctly, with his release point), in the shotgun, on a short slant (or receiver slanting across the middle if it makes you happier). You're stacking the deck unnecessarily. Other problems? You're calling a play where Ricardo fucking Lockette is the only option for Wilson. Seriously. With 26 seconds left in Championship game you're throwing to a guy who was hanging on to a roster spot by a thread, and only made the team because he's an excellent ST gunner. Run ADB on that pattern, or maybe even Kearse. Not Lockette. And a huge part of the play hinges on Kearse getting a release and moving Butler away from Lockette. But you know that the NE corners are going to be in press. And you know, better than almost anyone in the league, that Browner is one of the best at press coverage. So there is that screw up as well.

And you can point to every play that ever failed and say "Well, if player X did this, and player Y did that, it would have been a brilliant TD." Using that logic I can call Holmgren's old FB draw on third and an eternity. If everyone does their job, it's a score every damn time. But you can't call plays in a vacuum, and you have to account for what the defense is good at as well.

Give ALL of the credit on that to belicheck and his staff for doing their homework and actually practicing against that very play and to both corners for doing an outstanding job of breaking it up.

Not all. Not even close. But they do get overlooked. Did they do their homework, or were we predictable? *Shrug* Doesn't much matter. But, as I've said before, that was a great play from Butler to get to the ball first, and more importantly hold on to the pass.

 

[WizardHawk]

BHF, stop taking everything personally. I didn't mention you, nor quote you. In fact, I really don't know who you are. It was posted in general to the topic with the added stuff from Carroll's interview and putting into perspective that they had maybe 10 seconds to make that call.

As for when the call was made to go to pass, Carroll said it himself in his interview on Tuesday I think it was. He specifically said after they sent out 11 personnel and saw their goal line group go out that he called for pass. I thought he said right after the game that they had planned to run out of that formation, but adjusted to what the defense was. So as I understand it, the plan before they sent the group out was a run and Carroll called for a pass after he saw the defense and Bevell sent out that particular pass play.

 

[WizardHawk]

As for what was said that night and changes that came after, you are mistaken. Although most of the people who were fighting me that night haven't been back on since and I can't blame them. Their blind anger of this is likely to keep them off the site or anything football related for at least a few months. People this uptight over it should take a break and stay away from it for now.

To me it's a form of entertainment. Them losing the game did nothing to me personally. I wasn't entitled to a SB win and they robbed it of me. They played their game and did the best they could and came up a little short. I still had a hell of a ride and enjoyed most of the season. I'm a die hard hawk that was with them through every 4-12 season and will be there next year through the next challenges.

 

[BHF]

BHF, stop taking everything personally. I didn't mention you, nor quote you. In fact, I really don't know who you are. It was posted in general to the topic with the added stuff from Carroll's interview and putting into perspective that they had maybe 10 seconds to make that call.

Believe me when I tell you that I take very little said on these message boards personally. But when you address the forum in broad strokes, expect people to call you out on it.

As for when the call was made to go to pass, Carroll said it himself in his interview on Tuesday I think it was. He specifically said after they sent out 11 personnel and saw their goal line group go out that he called for pass. I thought he said right after the game that they had planned to run out of that formation, but adjusted to what the defense was. So as I understand it, the plan before they sent the group out was a run and Carroll called for a pass after he saw the defense and Bevell sent out that particular pass play.

Fair enough. I may have misunderstood. Both possibilities are plausible. That scenario lifts a bunch of the blame off of Carroll's shoulders, though.

 

[WizardHawk]

Call me out on what? All you do is attack really.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind. Those that hate Bevell and want him gone are dead set in their views. I work with someone like that. He's a high school DB coach and he has been hating on Bevell ever since he came here. He's beside himself over it and wants to lead the pitchfork brigade to his house.

I'm simply giving a different point of view. Take it or leave it.

It's my opinion that if you fire Bevell you are dropping the likelihood of returning to the SB next season by at least 80%. Installing new coaches and new systems and getting players as comfortable within them takes time. Even if they are better plays and a better scheme. You are going to put this program back a year and at a time when the salary issues are going to start having more impact a year or two down the road.

I'm not for rocking the boat that got this team to back to back SB's. It's not that easy to just make sweeping changes and still be on top.

Agree with that, or don't. That is why I don't want to see Bevell go at this time. I want another chance at the SB next year and I really don't see it happening with massive changes on that side of the ball this off season. Period.

 

[BHF]

As for what was said that night and changes that came after, you are mistaken. Although most of the people who were fighting me that night haven't been back on since and I can't blame them. Their blind anger of this is likely to keep them off the site or anything football related for at least a few months. People this uptight over it should take a break and stay away from it for now.

Sorry, it wasn't the night before. But lets take a look at what everyone was typing over coffee the next morning.

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/seattle-seahawks/180684-lets-make-clear.html

Lots of people we blasting the pattern, but were okay with the pass call.

To me it's a form of entertainment. Them losing the game did nothing to me personally. I wasn't entitled to a SB win and they robbed it of me. They played their game and did the best they could and came up a little short. I still had a hell of a ride and enjoyed most of the season. I'm a die hard hawk that was with them through every 4-12 season and will be there next year through the next challenges.

Not for nothing dude, but if your entertainment involves being a dick to people who had a heavy emotional attachment to an event...not cool man. Not cool.

 

[BHF]

Call me out on what? All you do is attack really.

The lack of self awareness is pretty awesome. Or it's some great trolling. Either way, bravo.

 

[WizardHawk]

Sorry, it wasn't the night before. But lets take a look at what everyone was typing over coffee the next morning.

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/seattle-seahawks/180684-lets-make-clear.html

Lots of people we blasting the pattern, but were okay with the pass call.

Right, that was AFTER Carroll had said HE made the call to pass. The narrative changed after they could no longer pin the choice to pass or not on Bevell. This is what I said.

Not for nothing dude, but if your entertainment involves being a dick to people who had a heavy emotional attachment to an event...not cool man. Not cool.

Where did I say my entertainment was being a dick to anyone? What the fuck are you talking about? You are entirely lost. I said following football is a form of entertainment. How is that being a dick to anyone?

Jesus man, learn to read.

But calling someone else a dick, while you are in fact being one, is comical?

 

[gohusk]

Right, that was AFTER Carroll had said HE made the call to pass. The narrative changed after they could no longer pin the choice to pass or not on Bevell. This is what I said.




Where did I say my entertainment was being a dick to anyone? What the fuck are you talking about? You are entirely lost. I said following football is a form of entertainment. How is that being a dick to anyone?

Jesus man, learn to read.

But calling someone else a dick, while you are in fact being one, is comical?

Look at how you respond to people. This isn't a discussion with you. It's anybody who has a contrary opinion to yours is apparently an idiot. Seriously, tone it down. That's why people get heated with you.

 

[Logicallylethal]

Here's how I see it

It's a questionable call, but the right call by the book. However, in this circumstance, I and many others, would say screw the book. You have one of if not the best back in all of football at the goal line. I don't care if the odds are stacked against you. You have the defense on the ropes and 3 downs to get one yard.

Now everyone is bringing up the whole time situation with only 26 seconds left so you were forced to run a pass play.

False

The Seahawks had plenty of time to run the ball at the 50 second mark, the 40 second mark, the 35 second mark. They chose to bleed the clock all the way down to 26. A running play could have easily been ran at the 40 second mark. And if we get stuffed now we have 30 + seconds to run 2 plays with a timeout in our pocket.


With all that said the play call, while questionable, is not a terrible one and is far from being "the worst call in sports history."

Pete said it right...it was the worst outcome from a call in sports history...not the worst call


Now let's break down the play. If any ONE of 3 things go right then the play is a touchdown or an incomplete

1) Kearse successfully picks Browner
2) Russell throws a better ball (one that doesn't lead the receiver too much, slightly lower, or behind)
3) Lockette runs a more direct route, puts in more effort on the catch, doesn't give his route away based on his stance and head movement once the route starts

I would say the execution of the play was just as bad if not worse than the call itself.

It was the perfect storm for everything to go wrong and even so it took an absolutely incredible play by not only Butler but by Browner as well for overcoming the jam and allowing Butler a free beeline towards the ball

 

[WizardHawk]

Look at how you respond to people. This isn't a discussion with you. It's anybody who has a contrary opinion to yours is apparently an idiot. Seriously, tone it down. That's why people get heated with you.

So you also think I was somehow saying I get entertainment being a dick?

I really don't get how someone is a dick to say they follow football to be entertained and they still had a great ride with it all year despite the ending. The team didn't take any of those memories away by blowing the last play and it won't keep me from being there next year.

How exactly is that being a dick?

 

[BHF]

Right, that was AFTER Carroll had said HE made the call to pass. The narrative changed after they could no longer pin the choice to pass or not on Bevell. This is what I said.

And, until the interview yesterday everyone assumed he was throwing himself on his sword. A belief backed up when Bevell said in HIS interview that HE made the call right after the game. So...yeah.

Where did I say my entertainment was being a dick to anyone? What the fuck are you talking about? You are entirely lost. I said following football is a form of entertainment. How is that being a dick to anyone?

Jesus man, learn to read.

But calling someone else a dick, while you are in fact being one, is comical?

Where did I say that was what you said? As you addressed posting in the forum in the first part of your post and didn't offer any sort of segway, I assumed that topic was still on the table. I'm commenting on your behavior. And I can't say that I'm terribly surprised that that is lost on you. From your first post in here after the game you've accused posters of being classless to the Pats when an overwhelming majority (indeed, it may very well have been every regular poster) went out of their way to congratulate New England. And if anyone had the temerity to disagree with your position on the play call you pulled out just about every synonym for "idiot" you could dig out. A pattern you've continued all week. Throw in more than a little condescension for garnish and yeah...you've got some pretty shitty stuff.

 

[WizardHawk]

Here's how I see it

It's a questionable call, but the right call by the book. However, in this circumstance, I and many others, would say screw the book. You have one of if not the best back in all of football at the goal line. I don't care if the odds are stacked against you. You have the defense on the ropes and 3 downs to get one yard.

Now everyone is bringing up the whole time situation with only 26 seconds left so you were forced to run a pass play.

False

The Seahawks had plenty of time to run the ball at the 50 second mark, the 40 second mark, the 35 second mark. They chose to bleed the clock all the way down to 26. A running play could have easily been ran at the 40 second mark. And if we get stuffed now we have 30 + seconds to run 2 plays with a timeout in our pocket.


With all that said the play call, while questionable, is not a terrible one and is far from being "the worst call in sports history."

Pete said it right...it was the worst outcome from a call in sports history...not the worst call


Now let's break down the play. If any ONE of 3 things go right then the play is a touchdown or an incomplete

1) Kearse successfully picks Browner
2) Russell throws a better ball (one that doesn't lead the receiver too much, slightly lower, or behind)
3) Lockette runs a more direct route, puts in more effort on the catch, doesn't give his route away based on his stance and head movement once the route starts

I would say the execution of the play was just as bad if not worse than the call itself.

It was the perfect storm for everything to go wrong and even so it took an absolutely incredible play by not only Butler but by Browner as well for overcoming the jam and allowing Butler a free beeline towards the ball

Agree with all of that, but to be fair, those that hate Bevell would point out it was the right call from the 'book', but that HE writes that book. And they are correct.

They don't have time to dick around with what to do so pretty much every situation imaginable is gone over to create the greater playbook and the smaller game plan. That was the correct call from the book, but he made that book, and I get that some think that wasn't the best pass play he could have had predrawn up for that situation.

It is correct to say he made the only call available given the situation, but he made it that way.

And Belichick's staff did a great job scouting their tendencies and picking one of the right plays to practice and be ready for. Just have to take your hat off to them for prepping for that and playing it extremely well.

 

[WizardHawk]

Where did I say that was what you said? As you addressed posting in the forum in the first part of your post and didn't offer any sort of segway, I assumed that topic was still on the table. I'm commenting on your behavior. And I can't say that I'm terribly surprised that that is lost on you. From your first post in here after the game you've accused posters of being classless to the Pats when an overwhelming majority (indeed, it may very well have been every regular poster) went out of their way to congratulate New England. And if anyone had the temerity to disagree with your position on the play call you pulled out just about every synonym for "idiot" you could dig out. A pattern you've continued all week. Throw in more than a little condescension for garnish and yeah...you've got some pretty shitty stuff.

So ignore me then. You are free to not read anything I post. However, that would be quite a change since it seems you can't go any post of mine without commenting on it and without throwing negativity at it... and then calling me a dick. Hold up a mirror.

In this quote you have condescending banter and misrepresentation to support something that frankly no one gives a shit about. Kind of dickish?

 

[BHF]

Here's how I see it

It's a questionable call, but the right call by the book. However, in this circumstance, I and many others, would say screw the book. You have one of if not the best back in all of football at the goal line. I don't care if the odds are stacked against you. You have the defense on the ropes and 3 downs to get one yard.

Now everyone is bringing up the whole time situation with only 26 seconds left so you were forced to run a pass play.

False

The Seahawks had plenty of time to run the ball at the 50 second mark, the 40 second mark, the 35 second mark. They chose to bleed the clock all the way down to 26. A running play could have easily been ran at the 40 second mark. And if we get stuffed now we have 30 + seconds to run 2 plays with a timeout in our pocket.


With all that said the play call, while questionable, is not a terrible one and is far from being "the worst call in sports history."

Pete said it right...it was the worst outcome from a call in sports history...not the worst call

Disagree with the bolded, but I agree with everything else.


Now let's break down the play. If any ONE of 3 things go right then the play is a touchdown or an incomplete

1) Kearse successfully picks Browner He needs to pick Butler, and to do that he needs to break press with Browner and beat Butler to the area on a bang/bang play. Terrible, terrible position to put him in.
2) Russell throws a better ball (one that doesn't lead the receiver too much, slightly lower, or behind)Mostly agree with this, but why are you asking him to make this throw out with the angle out of the shotgun? Bad geometry. (And I'm still not convinced that Lockette makes it in with a perfect throw. The catch would still have been short of the EZ)
3) Lockette runs a more direct route, puts in more effort on the catch, doesn't give his route away based on his stance and head movement once the route starts Probably all true. Actually, almost certainly all true. And we all know he isn't a very good WR...so why call a play for him here?

I would say the execution of the play was just as bad if not worse than the call itself.

It was the perfect storm for everything to go wrong and even so it took an absolutely incredible play by not only Butler but by Browner as well for overcoming the jam and allowing Butler a free beeline towards the ball[/QUOTE]

Objections in bold.

 

[BHF]

So ignore me then. You are free to not read anything I post. However, that would be quite a change since it seems you can't go any post of mine without commenting on it and without throwing negativity at it... and then calling me a dick. Hold up a mirror.

In this quote you have condescending banter and misrepresentation to support something that frankly no one gives a shit about. Kind of dickish?

If you'll notice, the only posts I've ever gotten even remotely snotty in are the ones directed at you. And even then, only in threads where you seem to feel like you need to be an ass. Everyone else on this forum is pretty cool and seems to treat one another with respect. Except, for some reason...you. And if my disagreeing with you and actually attempting to debate the point is "throwing negativity", how in the hell have you ever lasted on a message forum?

 

[gohusk]

So you also think I was somehow saying I get entertainment being a dick?

I really don't get how someone is a dick to say they follow football to be entertained and they still had a great ride with it all year despite the ending. The team didn't take any of those memories away by blowing the last play and it won't keep me from being there next year.

How exactly is that being a dick?

Where the hell did I say that. I'm saying that your harsh rhetoric is going to get a rise out of people. Look, I don't like Bevell and I think that was the dumbest call I've seen in my entire life. You don't. Let's just move on. Season's over.