ANYBODY WANT TO DEFEND BEVELL NOW????

[BHF]

Calm down man. This is the hawks board and he might be calling you names or otherwise being a jackass, but you need to watch giving it back. Stick to the facts and the topic. Don't let yourself get sucked into a pissing match and end up kicked off the board. Your opinions are valid, don't let the message get lost in the delivery.

Dude, get off your horse. You were the first person in this thread insulting other posters.

 

[ElTexan]

I wrote this right after the super bowl and have been pasting it without insult IN SUPPORT OF SEATTLE COACHES, and all I get back is rant, name-calling, etc.
Here it is in cold, clean, logic.

Can anyone counter this substantively?:

26 seconds, 1 time out, 2nd down. There are three options:

A. Run Lynch twice and not even worry about running a play on a 4th down... a 4th down you'll never see because of time. We call this option the DUMB option.

B. Run Lynch on 2nd down, call Time Out, and then the Defense knows that you have to Pass on 3rd.

C. Throw on 2nd which saves Time Out and keeps options open on 3rd [run or pass].

=====================

All options run Lynch twice.
C. is the best option, which is what Carroll did.

 

[WizardHawk]

Your probably right, I doubt Emmitt Smith knows anything about the game.

I said that? He doesn't know what went into that decision. Neither does any other former player/coach that hasn't taken the time to hear what went into that choice.

Are you this dense in real life?

History will be on my side. As much as it pains me, I have to agree with Stephen A. Smith when he said that Pete Carrolls legacy will be remembered by that play call. He's right.

Are you seriously quoting Stephen A? I mean really? Really?

That right there is all we need to know about you. Nothing more to say. I wont read anything past this point, nor replies. Quoting Stephen A proves you are a complete and utter moron.

 

[WizardHawk]

I wrote this right after the super bowl and have been pasting it without insult IN SUPPORT OF SEATTLE COACHES, and all I get back is rant, name-calling, etc.
Here it is in cold, clean, logic.

Can anyone counter this substantively?:

26 seconds, 1 time out, 2nd down. There are three options:

A. Run Lynch twice and not even worry about running a play on a 4th down... a 4th down you'll never see because of time. We call this option the DUMB option.

B. Run Lynch on 2nd down, call Time Out, and then the Defense knows that you have to Pass on 3rd.

C. Throw on 2nd which saves Time Out and keeps options open on 3rd [run or pass].

=====================

All options run Lynch twice.
C. is the best option, which is what Carroll did.

Yes, they had more than 26 seconds when they were faced with those choices. There was over a minute left when Lynch hit the 1y line on first down.

If you can come up with an argument that is adjusted for having that much time at the point where a decision has to be made then by all means do so.

 

[ElTexan]

Quoting Stephen A Smith as an expert and also calling for a 4th down to go unused.
Is there really more to say?

Oh, yes there is: I have copy-pasted the cold hard logic to you a dozen times and you have not replied to it ONCE.

 

[WizardHawk]

Dude, get off your horse. You were the first person in this thread insulting other posters.

So you don't get that I'm telling someone that isn't a hawks fan not to insult even if they are insulted first? How did you not get that?

Reading really isn't a strong point for you or the guy that quotes Stephen A Smith as a football guru is it?

 

[JMR]

2. This shows a clear lack of understanding of the play. Wilson has no time to read anybody but Lockette. Sure, eh should have put it lower, if it was physically possible. But it wasn't.

Thank you. For the QB, on this play it's catch and immediately drill it through the window you have before the WR is too far into the route. You don't have time to sit there and see if all the other guys did everything right. You just have to trust it.

 

[tzorn10]

Carroll made the right choice throwing on 2nd...

Yes and all Seahawk fans are rejoicing right now.


Look, we're arguing about the call right now and you'll be doing the same 10 years from now because nobody agrees with you. Whatever, it is what it is.

 

[WizardHawk]

Thank you. For the QB, on this play it's catch and immediately drill it through the window you have before the WR is too far into the route. You don't have time to sit there and see if all the other guys did everything right. You just have to trust it.

So if there is a defender out of place and entirely in front of the receiver you don't look or have time to react?

Sorry, not buying it. You check that your receiver is in the position you expect and then you let it rip. He may well not even be in his break at the time you release it, but a QB always has to check the defense before throwing it.

 

[ElTexan]

Yes, they had more than 26 seconds when they were faced with those choices. There was over a minute left when Lynch hit the 1y line on first down.

If you can come up with an argument that is adjusted for having that much time at the point where a decision has to be made then by all means do so.

That's a different argument, yes.

So, how does that play out in a coaches' head?

one minute left, the season on the line on the last series of the Super Bowl:

The ONLY reason to "rush" at that point is if Carroll had already decided beforehand that he was going to want to RUN Lynch three times into the Goal Line Defense of the Pats.

That's a helluva thing to decide on the fly in that situation, decide from the beginning of 2nd down you are going to Run all three downs no matter what.

Taking a less "rushed" approach and keeping your options open [like the option to throw against 8 in the box and three Wide Outs, stop the clock, keep the D guessing on 3rd] seems like a good, patient, solid coaching decision.

Not the exact same situation, but:

At the end of the 1st half of the iron bowl, malzahn throws a bomb to the 1 with 28 seconds left and one time out left.

Instead of:
A. calling the time out immediately and throwing three calm pass attempts into the end zone and calmly kicking a FG if those fail, he instead
B. Tries to rush his entire team to the 1 yard line as the clock ticks down to 10 seconds, calls ONE hurried running play, fails, calls his last time out at 4 seconds, and then kicks a FG.

He chose to rush and turned THREE calm TD attempts into ONE hurried TD attempt on the ground.

Bad. Coaching.

 

[tzorn10]

1. Carroll immediately backed up his call with cold logic [about an hour after i wrote the same thing] in his empty locker interview. That's not an apology

My fault, I meant to say that he apologized to his own players for the play call.

 

[tzorn10]

Dude, get off your horse. You were the first person in this thread insulting other posters.

Yeah he told me to fuck off just because I'm not on his Bevell bandwagon

 

[BHF]

So...then you did crib from other websites. That wasn't so hard. Funny you should accuse someone of ranting when you then post:{/quote]
I still have no idea what 'crib' from other websites means. You keep accusing me of it and I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure it doesn't matter anyway. You are way off topic.

To crib. To borrow or steal from. In this particular case, you accused posters of "parroting" what they see and hear from other commentators...and then proceed to do the exact same thing, dropping stats that you just read about.

[qoute] Your rant about HC job in offensive play calling loop just says you don't know football. Not much more needs to be said.

ORLY? Please...point out where I was mistaken in explaining the play calling loop. I'm fascinated to know.

The buck stops with him. Period. Bevell does call the plays and Pete is on the set and clears or can stop it any time. If you don't get that, then there is no point in continuing this with you as you aren't capable of understanding the sport at that level.

Okay, lets just start at the macro level and point out that if you are going to use that argument, every missed tackle, every missed assignment, every false start, every little damn thing that goes wrong is on Pete. Because the buck stops with him.

Now that we've established the absurdity on the macro level, we can look at the micro. The only way to override the play in this situation and not put a hurried, unprepared offense at the line, or take a five yard penalty was to take a time out. Are you going to maintain that a TO was the right call for Pete there?

Interesting. You would have blamed BB for how he managed the end of that game, but PC is entirely off the hook.

BB is in charge of time management, he doesn't have someone to handle that for him. Pete has someone to handle the offense for him. So, yeah. Different situations.

You still can't get that your argument assumes facts only known A F T E R the time the decision had to be made. Do you not get that? AFTER. I said I felt vindicated that others with a lot more understanding of football than any of us has come out and said pretty much the same thing I had already been saying, which was based on the decision they made BEFORE they knew the outcome. God man. Wake the hell up.

LOL...so, when someone comes out and supports your case, you get to claim them. But when I say that it was a dumb pattern to call, and players actually involved in the outcome come out and make statements that support that argument, they aren't comparable because...reasons. Here's the thing...Butler knew to jump the pattern because the scout team made them practice it. Why did the scout team run it? Because it's a predictable tendency of our offense. And this doesn't support my argument...how?

 

[tzorn10]

I said that? He doesn't know what went into that decision. Neither does any other former player/coach that hasn't taken the time to hear what went into that choice.

Says the guy who has brought up Kurt Warner at every turn.

 

[BHF]

I wrote this right after the super bowl and have been pasting it without insult IN SUPPORT OF SEATTLE COACHES, and all I get back is rant, name-calling, etc.
Here it is in cold, clean, logic.

Can anyone counter this substantively?:

26 seconds, 1 time out, 2nd down. There are three options:

A. Run Lynch twice and not even worry about running a play on a 4th down... a 4th down you'll never see because of time. We call this option the DUMB option.

B. Run Lynch on 2nd down, call Time Out, and then the Defense knows that you have to Pass on 3rd.

C. Throw on 2nd which saves Time Out and keeps options open on 3rd [run or pass].

=====================

All options run Lynch twice.
C. is the best option, which is what Carroll did.

You keep spamming this, even when it's been pointed out that while most people don't agree with the pass call, the larger issue was the type of pass play called. A boot, PA pass (even better, a PA boot), or fade to a tall receiver with a size advantage all made more sense than a shotgun slant.

 

[BHF]

So you don't get that I'm telling someone that isn't a hawks fan not to insult even if they are insulted first? How did you not get that?

Reading really isn't a strong point for you or the guy that quotes Stephen A Smith as a football guru is it?

Oh, I get it. I'm just point out the total hypocrisy in it coming from a guy came in here swinging, insulting, and accusing the forum of things they weren't doing.

 

[ElTexan]

You keep spamming this, even when it's been pointed out that while most people don't agree with the pass call, the larger issue was the type of pass play called. A boot, PA pass (even better, a PA boot), or fade to a tall receiver with a size advantage all made more sense than a shotgun slant.

yes, i'm trying to reach that vast majority of ranting people, have them think for a minute, and understand pass was the right call.

 

[tzorn10]

Yeah. We call that smart coaching.

'Pete Carroll and the Choke seen around the world' - Huffington Post

'The Worst Call In Super Bowl History Will Haunt Carroll Forever' - NY Post

'Pete Carroll On Baffling Last Play Call' - "That's All My Fault Totally" - USA Today

'Seahawks Fun Loving Coach Makes Serious Mistake By Authorizing Ill Fated Pass' - ESPN

'Pete Carroll Just Made The Biggest Screw-Up In Super Bowl History' - Newsweek

'Pete Carrolls Decision Astonishing, Explanation Perplexing' - CBS Sports

'Pete Carroll Takes Blame For Play Call That Cost Seahawks Super Bowl' - Washington Post

'Pete Carroll Blows It For The Seahawks In Super Bowl XLIX' - LA Times



Seems a lot of people agree with you.

 

[ElTexan]

'Pete Carroll and the Choke seen around the world' - Huffington Post

'The Worst Call In Super Bowl History Will Haunt Carroll Forever' - NY Post

'Pete Carroll On Baffling Last Play Call' - "That's All My Fault Totally" - USA Today

'Seahawks Fun Loving Coach Makes Serious Mistake By Authorizing Ill Fated Pass' - ESPN

'Pete Carroll Just Made The Biggest Screw-Up In Super Bowl History' - Newsweek

'Pete Carrolls Decision Astonishing, Explanation Perplexing' - CBS Sports

'Pete Carroll Takes Blame For Play Call That Cost Seahawks Super Bowl' - Washington Post

'Pete Carroll Blows It For The Seahawks In Super Bowl XLIX' - LA Times



Seems a lot of people agree with you.

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[WizardHawk]

That's a different argument, yes.

So, how does that play out in a coaches' head?

one minute left, the season on the line on the last series of the Super Bowl:

The ONLY reason to "rush" at that point is if Carroll had already decided beforehand that he was going to want to RUN Lynch three times into the Goal Line Defense of the Pats.

That's a helluva thing to decide on the fly in that situation, decide from the beginning of 2nd down you are going to Run all three downs no matter what.

Taking a less "rushed" approach and keeping your options open [like the option to throw against 8 in the box and three Wide Outs, stop the clock, keep the D guessing on 3rd] seems like a good, patient, solid coaching decision.

Not the exact same situation, but:

At the end of the 1st half of the iron bowl, malzahn throws a bomb to the 1 with 28 seconds left and one time out left.

Instead of:
A. calling the time out immediately and throwing three calm pass attempts into the end zone and calmly kicking a FG if those fail, he instead
B. Tries to rush his entire team to the 1 yard line as the clock ticks down to 10 seconds, calls ONE hurried running play, fails, calls his last time out at 4 seconds, and then kicks a FG.

He chose to rush and turned THREE calm TD attempts into ONE hurried TD attempt on the ground.

Bad. Coaching.

That's kind of what I've been saying. Blame Carroll for not managing the clock and circumstances right.

They sent out 11 and wanted to run out of it and let NE dictate that they would change that based on their defense. They should have sent out 22 or some form of power and just ran it in. Their worry about clock and allowing NE to force them into a passing play ultimately cost them the game.