All-Time Roster of Non-HOF Players

[broncosmitty]

eh... he really wasn't as good as you/any of us remember... He really only had ONE good season...

AFTER the coke and heroin and meth.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

AFTER the coke and heroin and meth.

Surprisingly enough he was great vs Phil coke.

 

[Omar 382]

I know you hate adjusted stats... I do too... But I wish that the adjustment didn't use the league averages, but used the player who was the 20th best or something like that...

some stat heads think + stats are great to compare eras, but they really are not... when we are talking about the greats, why are we comparing them with the average players of their time??

Why not? That's the perfect way to compare it. Comparing players to the "20th best player" would be arbitrary and very confusing. If you know the league average OPS is 105, and one player has a 120 OPS+ and another has a 140 OPS+, you automatically know who was the better hitter during that era. I don't see the resistance to league and park adjusted statistics.

 

[Omar 382]

Naturally the scouting would affect all this since a guy's talent would "out" before he got to the pros.
Still, Ruth's pitching skills would have really meant a lot to a lot of teams looking for a top of the line rotation guy. I think we all agree that he'd be hitting a lot, but almost all pitchers were some kind of overall talent in high school. A lot of them quit hitting when they start pitching regularly. That apparently never affected Ruth.

Of course, if he had come up as a hitter, nobody would ever have known how good a pitcher he was.

You think someone who weighs "215 pounds" (imagine if he put his other foot on the scale), with a beer gut would be made a pitcher in high school? I don't think so. Babe Ruth would be a better hitter than Mike Trout if he played today.

 

[Omar 382]

So would David Price, Chapman, Jansen, Cueto and anyone with a darker tan than the Ross brothers.

Yes, there are tons of advantages/disadvantages to hitting or playing baseball in general today vs. in the '20s and '30s. Here is the rundown off the top of my head for playing today.

DISADVANTAGES:
Playing against better players/facing better athletes (harder throwing pitchers)
Longer season (albeit slightly longer)
Playing against a larger pool of competition (30 teams, every ethnicity is allowed to play)

ADVANTAGES:
Illegal PED's (dextroamphetamine, steroids, HGH)
Legal pharmaceuticals/widespread counseling (imagine if he was prescribed Lexapro and could talk to a therapist instead of drinking every night)
Better diets/more widespread awareness of fitness (not swinging a bat underwater like Honus Wagner)
Easier transportation (planes instead of trains)
Widespread technology to analyze his swing
The DH
No spitballs

There is probably many more to each side I'm forgetting, but which era sounds easier to play in?

 

[Omar 382]

eh... he really wasn't as good as you/any of us remember... He really only had ONE good season...

He had at least four "good seasons"

 

[Omar 382]

I know you hate adjusted stats... I do too... But I wish that the adjustment didn't use the league averages, but used the player who was the 20th best or something like that...

some stat heads think + stats are great to compare eras, but they really are not... when we are talking about the greats, why are we comparing them with the average players of their time??

If you hate adjusted stats, i.e. OPS+ and wRC+, could you at least include that stats they're based on, OPS, and preferably wOBA, in your analysis of players?

 

[Omar 382]

Surprisingly enough he was great vs Phil coke.

I heard he couldn't "sniff" him after '07 or so...

 

[Omar 382]

I only took guys you didn't. Thought maybe it'd spur on the conversation a little.

What's your problem with Freehan?

My 1-2 can't be topped with non HOFers.

Oh, I didn't know that's what you're doing. If that's the case, given your love of homerism (no offense), why the hell isn't Magglio Ordonez your right fielder????

 

[Omar 382]

Hellyeah ... he was beloved. Played for almost everybody.

View attachment 151951

If being "beloved" and "playing for almost everybody" is our only stipulations, how is Matt Stairs not on this list?

 

[broncosmitty]

Yes, there are tons of advantages/disadvantages to hitting or playing baseball in general today vs. in the '20s and '30s. Here is the rundown off the top of my head for playing today.

DISADVANTAGES:
Playing against better players/facing better athletes (harder throwing pitchers)
Longer season (albeit slightly longer)
Playing against a larger pool of competition (30 teams, every ethnicity is allowed to play)

ADVANTAGES:
Illegal PED's (dextroamphetamine, steroids, HGH)
Legal pharmaceuticals/widespread counseling (imagine if he was prescribed Lexapro and could talk to a therapist instead of drinking every night)
Better diets/more widespread awareness of fitness (not swinging a bat underwater like Honus Wagner)
Easier transportation (planes instead of trains)
Widespread technology to analyze his swing
The DH
No spitballs

There is probably many more to each side I'm forgetting, but which era sounds easier to play in?

Easier?

Pre Integration.

Guys had competion from American Whites, that's it. And maybe 15-20 other guys who old white guys were cool with having them play against their teams. (So I guess that would mean harder if you werent white. Or impossible.)

I don't think levels of easy is how I compare eras, or players of different eras. And imo a lot the advantages you listed are applicable to both pitchers and hitters, kind of a wash. Eras a different, sometimes because of style and little else.

 

[Omar 382]

Easier?

Pre Integration.

Guys had competion from American Whites, that's it. And maybe 15-20 other guys who old white guys were cool with having them play against their teams. (So I guess that would mean harder if you werent white. Or impossible.)

I don't think levels of easy is how I compare eras, or players of different eras. And imo a lot the advantages you listed are applicable to both pitchers and hitters, kind of a wash. Eras a different, sometimes because of style and little else.

Damn right they are. Who would be better given both of all those advantages, Johnny Cueto or Babe Ruth?

 

[broncosmitty]

Oh, I didn't know that's what you're doing. If that's the case, given your love of homerism (no offense), why the hell isn't Magglio Ordonez your right fielder????

Maggs isn't a better than Strawberry. Or Larry Walker. (Who is an option for this, is he?)

Id go with Rocky Colivito in the OF before Maggs. But hair and roids really brought him back and then some. One of my favorite Tigers for sure.

If we did this with guys who never were AllStars, Gibby would definitely be on my team.

 

[Omar 382]

Maggs isn't a better than Strawberry. Or Larry Walker. (Who is an option for this, is he?)

Id go with Rocky Colivito in the OF before Maggs. But hair and roids really brought him back and then some. One of my favorite Tigers for sure.

If we did this with guys who never were AllStars, Gibby would definitely be on my team.

Yeah, I was joking about Ordonez, but I do think he's underrated. Maybe I'll make a thread about best players who were never AS's, but I think that would be too hard for many to research (also, never knew Gibson wasn't an All-Star. You'd think they would put him in in '89 for the hell of it. I have no idea how he did in '89, but regardless, I thought he would have made it)

 

[broncosmitty]

Damn right they are. Who would be better given both of all those advantages, Johnny Cueto or Babe Ruth?

Cueto can speak Spanish better than Ruth.

I'm not sure what else Id pick him first for.

I think Ruth would be one of the best lefties ever no matter when he played. He'd hit 80 homers if he played at current YAnkee Stadium.

 

[broncosmitty]

Yeah, I was joking about Ordonez, but I do think he's underrated. Maybe I'll make a thread about best players who were never AS's, but I think that would be too hard for many to research (also, never knew Gibson wasn't an All-Star. You'd think they would put him in in '89 for the hell of it. I have no idea how he did in '89, but regardless, I thought he would have made it)

Gibby isn't even the only MVP never to be an AS.

Which is weird. How are you not AS worthy in an MVP season?

 

[Omar 382]

Cueto can speak Spanish better than Ruth.

I'm not sure what else Id pick him first for.

I think Ruth would be one of the best lefties ever no matter when he played. He'd hit 80 homers if he played at current YAnkee Stadium.

Imagine if Teddy Ballgame was right-handed and didn't miss 5 fucking years because of stupid Adolf Hitler

 

[Omar 382]

Gibby isn't even the only MVP never to be an AS.

Which is weird. How are you not AS worthy in an MVP season?

I can name another. Terry Pendleton (right?)

 

[Omar 382]

Imagine if Teddy Ballgame was right-handed and didn't miss 5 fucking years because of stupid Adolf Hitler

And stupid Koreans- can't forget stupid Koreans

 

[broncosmitty]

I can name another. Terry Pendleton (right?)

He was an AS once.

(Cox mightve named him, idk.)