All-Time Roster of Non-HOF Players

[broncosmitty]

Plus, he was an above average defender at a defensive premium position... He is on my Under-rated list, and is easily a top 20 catcher of all time...

I was a big fan during his Pitates days.

Very underrated player. But I prolly would take Freehan over him. That's not much a knock imo.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I was a big fan during his Pitates days.

Very underrated player. But I prolly would take Freehan over him. That's not much a knock imo.

I would take Thurman munson over both though...

 

[broncosmitty]

I would take Thurman munson over both though...

Not a lot of argument from me on that one.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Not a lot of argument from me on that one.

then at least argue a little... I am bored...

 

[JohnU]

I would take Thurman munson over both though...

The issue is probably whether we are talking about H of F guys or guys who are not quite H of F guys. Munson is on a real short list so he maybe is already outside the conversation.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The issue is probably whether we are talking about H of F guys or guys who are not quite H of F guys. Munson is on a real short list so he maybe is already outside the conversation.

the OP had shoeless Joe as a starter, so pretty sure the only qualification is not being in the HOF, even if deserve it, or on pace to make it...

 

[JohnU]

the OP had shoeless Joe as a starter, so pretty sure the only qualification is not being in the HOF, even if deserve it, or on pace to make it...

If we are comparing Munson to Kendall, Munson is a H of F quality guy. Munson would be a no-brainer had he lived. Kendall is, to me, a catcher I'd like to have if I wanted a team full of competitive players with strong skill sets.

I might want to draw some kind of line on Joe Jackson as well. The game from 1916 ain't the same one that they play today. Yeah, Shoeless probably is a H of F hitter but I am a believer in comparing players inside like eras, when possible.

I doubt Cy Young gets 511 wins in the 21st century.

 

[StanMarsh51]

If we are comparing Munson to Kendall, Munson is a H of F quality guy. Munson would be a no-brainer had he lived. Kendall is, to me, a catcher I'd like to have if I wanted a team full of competitive players with strong skill sets.

I might want to draw some kind of line on Joe Jackson as well. The game from 1916 ain't the same one that they play today. Yeah, Shoeless probably is a H of F hitter but I am a believer in comparing players inside like eras, when possible.

I doubt Cy Young gets 511 wins in the 21st century.

Not sure about Munsion being a HOFer since he was already declining significantly when he died....his last 2 seasons (251 games) he had 9 HR, 110 RBI, 99 OPS+ and his WAR and OPS+ were the worst of his career.

 

[broncosmitty]

If we are comparing Munson to Kendall, Munson is a H of F quality guy. Munson would be a no-brainer had he lived. Kendall is, to me, a catcher I'd like to have if I wanted a team full of competitive players with strong skill sets.

I might want to draw some kind of line on Joe Jackson as well. The game from 1916 ain't the same one that they play today. Yeah, Shoeless probably is a H of F hitter but I am a believer in comparing players inside like eras, when possible.

I doubt Cy Young gets 511 wins in the 21st century.

Jackson lead the league in various stats during his career. The era may have been high OBPs across the board, but he still led the league.

He was no Ty Cobb or Tris Speaker. But few from any era are.

Munsons fame prolly has benefitted from his premature end. Only his prime is remembered and registered. It's no less a tragedy, but statisticly, his death helped his numbers.

 

[broncosmitty]

The issue is probably whether we are talking about H of F guys or guys who are not quite H of F guys. Munson is on a real short list so he maybe is already outside the conversation.

I don't view him as the best catcher that isn't in the HOF.

Raines vs Joe Jackson is a tough one too.

 

[JohnU]

Munsons fame prolly has benefitted from his premature end. Only his prime is remembered and registered. It's no less a tragedy, but statisticly, his death helped his numbers.

I probably am thinking of Munson more for his earlier exploits. It's hard to tell with catchers, being they have sore knees and broken fingers and such. Most of them move to a corner INF spot late in their career. I always found that sad about Bench, who went from HoF catcher to just being a third baseman. Hell, even Berra moved to left field.

Looked up Munson's numbers ... dude did not strike out very much.

 

[Omar 382]

I don't view him as the best catcher that isn't in the HOF.

Raines vs Joe Jackson is a tough one too.

I suppose so, based on "what could have been" vs. "what was." I'll still take Jackson. In ~half the PA, he was only 6 wins behind Raines. Honestly, I think some people don't realize how good he was. It's not like he was a .300/.400/.500 hitter who got banned. He had a career 165 wRC+ in the deadfall era (I know that stat accounts for different era's, but not perfectly IMO)

 

[Omar 382]

If we are comparing Munson to Kendall, Munson is a H of F quality guy. Munson would be a no-brainer had he lived. Kendall is, to me, a catcher I'd like to have if I wanted a team full of competitive players with strong skill sets.

I might want to draw some kind of line on Joe Jackson as well. The game from 1916 ain't the same one that they play today. Yeah, Shoeless probably is a H of F hitter but I am a believer in comparing players inside like eras, when possible.

I doubt Cy Young gets 511 wins in the 21st century.

Damn straight. It was a hell of a lot harder to be a power hitter, which is what he was (.517 SLG, .162 ISO)

 

[JohnU]

Damn straight. It was a hell of a lot harder to be a power hitter, which is what he was (.517 SLG, .162 ISO)

You still need to compare eras inside themselves -- can't extract the parts of the data that fit your narrative and exclude the others. Day baseball, spitball, ballpark dimensions ... how does Jackson's game play in the 1930s? Or the 1960s?

How does Ruth play today? If Ruth came along today, I'd guess they would still be using him as a pitcher because they already have a bunch of HR hitters.


This isn't really to be argumentative since there is only discussion and debate.

 

[Omar 382]

You still need to compare eras inside themselves -- can't extract the parts of the data that fit your narrative and exclude the others. Day baseball, spitball, ballpark dimensions ... how does Jackson's game play in the 1930s? Or the 1960s?

How does Ruth play today? If Ruth came along today, I'd guess they would still be using him as a pitcher because they already have a bunch of HR hitters.


This isn't really to be argumentative since there is only discussion and debate.

You think Babe Ruth, a top 3 hitter of all time, would be used as a pitcher? Um.......

 

[Omar 382]

You still need to compare eras inside themselves -- can't extract the parts of the data that fit your narrative and exclude the others. Day baseball, spitball, ballpark dimensions ... how does Jackson's game play in the 1930s? Or the 1960s?

How does Ruth play today? If Ruth came along today, I'd guess they would still be using him as a pitcher because they already have a bunch of HR hitters.


This isn't really to be argumentative since there is only discussion and debate.

The spitball would only make it harder for Jackson to hit.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don't view him as the best catcher that isn't in the HOF.

Raines vs Joe Jackson is a tough one too.

Raines is ineligible for this exercise though... He is still on the ballot...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I wish Dick Allen was eligible at 3rd base for this... He would start there, and you could put in a better bat at 1B...

 

[broncosmitty]

Raines is ineligible for this exercise though... He is still on the ballot...

Omar's stupid rules are killing me.

How's a guy supposed to replace that kind of cocain use at a corner outfield spot!?!

 

[broncosmitty]

I suppose so, based on "what could have been" vs. "what was." I'll still take Jackson. In ~half the PA, he was only 6 wins behind Raines. Honestly, I think some people don't realize how good he was. It's not like he was a .300/.400/.500 hitter who got banned. He had a career 165 wRC+ in the deadfall era (I know that stat accounts for different era's, but not perfectly IMO)

That one number with a + is a like a AA player who loves Skoal to me. Doesn't matter.



His career numbers got a lot of help on account of being banned. It's not like he was an MVP type player. Great player for sure, but what was, was prime. What could have been was Someone teaching him to read.