AL Central Smack Talk

[TrustMeIamRight]

A large percentage of the pitchers in the minors have the same issues you listed. To even mention a Cy Young pitcher in a discussion about him is just trying to sell the trade as a great trade for the Tigers and give them false hope that they possibly just got another Max S. Definately that wouldn't be laughed at on the Tigers board but the rest of the world?

give you examples

Ventura has the same make up as David Cone
Duffy has the same build and make up of Clayton Kershaw

tell me how amazing those two "views" are and if I posted those up and tried to get people to believe them. No different

I've already stated I HATED the doug fister trade. Also -- NOWHERE did you see me saying anything about Robbie Ray being the next Max Scherzer. I even prefaced my comments by saying I AM NOT COMPARING HIM TO MAX SCHERZER.

The only comparison between the two I made is that they both had trouble with the mechanics in their delivery leading to rise in their walk totals and MAYBE the tigers see something they believe they can fix in his delivery. That is all I said.

YOU are the one who twisted everything around because I mentioned Scherzer had the same issue when he came to the Tigers. Detroit actually doesn't have a good track record trying to fix issues with left handed starting pitchers when it comes to finding the plate. Andy Oliver was a "blue chip prospect" with a mid 90's fastball, but couldn't find the plate -- Detroit ended up trading him to the Pirates last year. Andrew Miller was a top 10 prospect and talked about being the next Randy Johnson when he was drafted -- hitting 96-99 on the gun as a left handed starter. He was traded to Miami in the Cabrera deal and now pitches in the bullpen.

So nothing is set in stone that Detroit is going to be able to fix the issues with Robbie Ray -- All I said is -- he has the same issue that Scherzer had when he came over to Detroit in the Granderson trade.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

lol, coming from a team who continues to finish 3rd to 5th and throwing WS parades, I know you understand...how again did Boston's GM win a WS so fast with the same payroll as the Tigers?

Top 6 teams with highest payroll, what 8 WS rings, Dodgers and Tigers the only two without them. So to actually have a top budget and access to build any team you want...that goes directly on the GM.

Dayton was able to get a team back to a winning record with the lowest budget in the majors, DD was able to do it with one of the top budgets in baseball (still took him 9 years). Makes you wonder how would play out if spots reversed. Funny, it must be DD is a great evaluator of talent...ummm ignore his drafting record and developing of players but he sure knows how to get guys other teams can't afford (will say Max was the exception)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every team in the MLB have the same opportunity to trade for players from other teams? And if DD didn't draft any talent -- how was he able to pull off these trades?
The majority of Detroit's roster was put together by making deals around the MLB trading 'prospects' for MLB ready players under team control for multiple years. They traded 4 prospects for Fister. They traded 9 prospects for Cabrera and Willis. They traded two of their top prospects for Sanchez and Infante. They traded Granderson and got AJax and Scherzer. They gave up basically nothing to get Peralta.

So while you can say he can't evaluate talent --He has seemed to be doing alright in that department when making trades.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Comparing the Tigers to the Yankees or Dodgers seems pretty silly after this offseason.

 

[Cleaves2000]

lol, coming from a team who continues to finish 3rd to 5th and throwing WS parades, I know you understand...how again did Boston's GM win a WS so fast with the same payroll as the Tigers?

Top 6 teams with highest payroll, what 8 WS rings, Dodgers and Tigers the only two without them. So to actually have a top budget and access to build any team you want...that goes directly on the GM.

Dayton was able to get a team back to a winning record with the lowest budget in the majors, DD was able to do it with one of the top budgets in baseball (still took him 9 years). Makes you wonder how would play out if spots reversed. Funny, it must be DD is a great evaluator of talent...ummm ignore his drafting record and developing of players but he sure knows how to get guys other teams can't afford (will say Max was the exception)

DD got detroit to the 2006 WS with the 14th highest payroll......and the only reason it was that high was because the money mags and pudge were getting....

Somebody thinks DD can draft talent.....teams keep trading us great players for our prospects.....can help they do nothing once they leave. Thats that teams fault for not developing them.....and whats that say about moore? He was always getting a top pick, year after year.....and still havent sniffed the playoffs.

Oaklands able to make the playoffs multiple times with a low budget....why cant the royals? They play in the so called worst division in baseball....and according to you, the tigers suck.....so why cant the royals win ONE central title?

 

[Cleaves2000]

lol, coming from a team who continues to finish 3rd to 5th and throwing WS parades, I know you understand...how again did Boston's GM win a WS so fast with the same payroll as the Tigers?

Top 6 teams with highest payroll, what 8 WS rings, Dodgers and Tigers the only two without them. So to actually have a top budget and access to build any team you want...that goes directly on the GM.

Dayton was able to get a team back to a winning record with the lowest budget in the majors, DD was able to do it with one of the top budgets in baseball (still took him 9 years). Makes you wonder how would play out if spots reversed. Funny, it must be DD is a great evaluator of talent...ummm ignore his drafting record and developing of players but he sure knows how to get guys other teams can't afford (will say Max was the exception)

Lowest budget? The royals had the 19th highest payroll last year....i have already mentioned the tigers went to the WS with the 14th highest payroll.....but yeah keep making shit up

 

[Cleaves2000]

Looking at omar infantes stats he was hitting near or over 300 all year.....what did he do in his last 42 games so huge? I know at AS break, he had some pretty good numbers compared to other 2B. I thought bonafacio was the one who got hot at the end of the year.....but yeah, i guess the royals think omar is better too since they gave him alot of money to take bonafacios job. But keep spinning it.....

 

[da55bums]

I've already stated I HATED the doug fister trade. Also -- NOWHERE did you see me saying anything about Robbie Ray being the next Max Scherzer. I even prefaced my comments by saying I AM NOT COMPARING HIM TO MAX SCHERZER.

The only comparison between the two I made is that they both had trouble with the mechanics in their delivery leading to rise in their walk totals and MAYBE the tigers see something they believe they can fix in his delivery. That is all I said.

YOU are the one who twisted everything around because I mentioned Scherzer had the same issue when he came to the Tigers. Detroit actually doesn't have a good track record trying to fix issues with left handed starting pitchers when it comes to finding the plate. Andy Oliver was a "blue chip prospect" with a mid 90's fastball, but couldn't find the plate -- Detroit ended up trading him to the Pirates last year. Andrew Miller was a top 10 prospect and talked about being the next Randy Johnson when he was drafted -- hitting 96-99 on the gun as a left handed starter. He was traded to Miami in the Cabrera deal and now pitches in the bullpen.

So nothing is set in stone that Detroit is going to be able to fix the issues with Robbie Ray -- All I said is -- he has the same issue that Scherzer had when he came over to Detroit in the Granderson trade.

talk about twisting...you are the one who did...I never ever said you "compared" them..I said it was moronic to mention him in any discussion about him...it was, still is.

 

[da55bums]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every team in the MLB have the same opportunity to trade for players from other teams? And if DD didn't draft any talent -- how was he able to pull off these trades?
The majority of Detroit's roster was put together by making deals around the MLB trading 'prospects' for MLB ready players under team control for multiple years. They traded 4 prospects for Fister. They traded 9 prospects for Cabrera and Willis. They traded two of their top prospects for Sanchez and Infante. They traded Granderson and got AJax and Scherzer. They gave up basically nothing to get Peralta.

So while you can say he can't evaluate talent --He has seemed to be doing alright in that department when making trades.

He is buying talent someone else found talented, if he was good at assessing it, he would be drafting and developing those same players before other teams get them.

List the players who have made some type of contribution to MLB in DD's tenor that he DRAFTED and developed, even if they went to other teams...we can compare those to Daytons.....the only way to fairly compare the two...

Dayton can't trade players for guys like Miggy and Sanchez's of the league with their size of contracts and future contracts (1 deal Meyers for Shields/Davis after the rest of the team had been built up cheaply)...like I said, lets compare the only drafting, devolping, farm system...thats the only way to compare the top 5 payroll GM with the bottom 5 payroll GM.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

He is buying talent someone else found talented, if he was good at assessing it, he would be drafting and developing those same players before other teams get them.

List the players who have made some type of contribution to MLB in DD's tenor that he DRAFTED and developed, even if they went to other teams...we can compare those to Daytons.....the only way to fairly compare the two...

Dayton can't trade players for guys like Miggy and Sanchez's of the league with their size of contracts and future contracts (1 deal Meyers for Shields/Davis after the rest of the team had been built up cheaply)...like I said, lets compare the only drafting, devolping, farm system...thats the only way to compare the top 5 payroll GM with the bottom 5 payroll GM.

How is he 'buying talent'? I could see if the Tigers were built in Free Agency, where you could say he is 'buying talent'. When a GM is trading away prospects to pick up pieces for the team -- that is part of their job. Are you saying Dayton Moore bought James Shields? Did he buy Aoki? Of course not -- he did what a good GM is supposed to do -- you identify a player you want on your team and trade prospects to acquire the player.

Dombrowski and Dayton Moore have as much to do with a player's development as you and I do. Their job is to control player transactions for their respective MLB teams and deal with contract talks with players, as well as hire the coaching staff for the MLB club. The development falls into the hands of the minor league coaches/hitting coaches/pitching coaches/position coaches, etc.

If you look at Detroit's 1st round picks over the last decade -- they had a couple years they didn't have a first round pick, but they have drafted Verlander (2004) and Porcello (2007) in the 1st round. They parlayed their 2005 and 2006 1st round picks of Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller into Miguel Cabrera in a trade. 2008 was Ryan Perry, who pitched in the bullpen for the club, but he flopped and was traded to the Diamondbacks. 2009 was Jacob Turner, who was parlayed into a trade where Detroit received Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante. 2010 was Nick Castellanos, who will be Detroit's 3rd basemen in 2014 and is rated as one of the top 10-20 prospects in the Minor leagues. 2010 they drafted Chance Ruffin as well, which was part of the deal to bring Doug Fister to Detroit. 2011 and 2012 -- Detroit didn't have a first round pick.

How exactly has Detroit failed in the draft? They have used their top picks to acquire Miguel Cabrera, Doug Fister, Omar Infante and Anibal Sanchez, have two of their picks in the starting rotation, another will take over 3rd base in 2014 and the only pick they have made that has sucked is Ryan Perry.

 

[navamind]

https://secure.mlb.com/cle/fan_forum/brohio_governor.jsp

This might be worse than Red Sox Nation.

 

[da55bums]

Lowest budget? The royals had the 19th highest payroll last year....i have already mentioned the tigers went to the WS with the 14th highest payroll.....but yeah keep making shit up

lol, so you pick the Tigers lowest year and the Royals highest year....lol....freaking hilarous...your just like Nevertrust me...the only one making shit up are the two who wont use ALL the stats.

DD has been a GM what 11-12 years...Dayton only 7-8...DD's big years are only on the horizon for Dayton.

Dayton - start 36 mil (in 06 when the tigers were already over the Royals current budget), lowest payroll in the majors, even 2011 back down to 36 mil, lowest in Majors...lowest budgest in baseball for entire tenure until 2012-13...but Dayton should have went to a WS with those lowest IN BASEBALL...just because the royals jump up to 19th for ONE year, your saying they should have what, won a WS? At best your point can be made that the Royals should have come close to replicated the Tigers 06 season in 13 but still the Tigers had a higher payroll since you pointed that out already.

DD - Since 06 has had the ability to get whatever players he has needed to win a world series, (without getting ARod type contracts til that terrible Fielder contract was signed to prove money wasn't an issue to build a WS team anymore)...

Both GMs have done good jobs, rebuild teams that were both sitting on the bottom, not going to say otherwise...DD has had more years and more money to do, so HE better have more success, if he can't win a WS between 06-15, then their are plenty of GM's who could with that budget, many before him have and many after him will..Moore's 13-15 seasons will tell if his plan was great, to win a WS, no way with the budget the Royals have, name the WS winners without a top 15 budget in the last 20 years. You can't compare the two GM's other than one way, the players their systems draft and develop and their success in the majors (even if they are traded away)...its the only common ground they both have.

For teams like Oak and TB to compete with their payrolls makes their GMs 10 times the GMs with top budgets. I believe the Royals Moore learned talent in a great Atlanta Braves system that proved consistant winning by building a strong founation in the minors and drafting...Oak, TB have simarlar minor leagues who fill positions on the roster then add a few big pieces if their close...small budget approach...not the get the big pieces and hopefully someone from our minor leagues can help out, almost any GM can do that. Theo is learning that in Chicago right now and seems lost..but should be fine with the big budget, no way the guy would take a small market team job and be successfull.

 

[da55bums]

How is he 'buying talent'? I could see if the Tigers were built in Free Agency, where you could say he is 'buying talent'. When a GM is trading away prospects to pick up pieces for the team -- that is part of their job. Are you saying Dayton Moore bought James Shields? Did he buy Aoki? Of course not -- he did what a good GM is supposed to do -- you identify a player you want on your team and trade prospects to acquire the player.

Dombrowski and Dayton Moore have as much to do with a player's development as you and I do. Their job is to control player transactions for their respective MLB teams and deal with contract talks with players, as well as hire the coaching staff for the MLB club. The development falls into the hands of the minor league coaches/hitting coaches/pitching coaches/position coaches, etc.

If you look at Detroit's 1st round picks over the last decade -- they had a couple years they didn't have a first round pick, but they have drafted Verlander (2004) and Porcello (2007) in the 1st round. They parlayed their 2005 and 2006 1st round picks of Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller into Miguel Cabrera in a trade. 2008 was Ryan Perry, who pitched in the bullpen for the club, but he flopped and was traded to the Diamondbacks. 2009 was Jacob Turner, who was parlayed into a trade where Detroit received Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante. 2010 was Nick Castellanos, who will be Detroit's 3rd basemen in 2014 and is rated as one of the top 10-20 prospects in the Minor leagues. 2010 they drafted Chance Ruffin as well, which was part of the deal to bring Doug Fister to Detroit. 2011 and 2012 -- Detroit didn't have a first round pick.

How exactly has Detroit failed in the draft? They have used their top picks to acquire Miguel Cabrera, Doug Fister, Omar Infante and Anibal Sanchez, have two of their picks in the starting rotation, another will take over 3rd base in 2014.

You really didn't say that did you? " and the only pick they have made that has sucked is Ryan Perry"... Andrew Miller. Kyle Sleeth, Scott Moore during DD's tenure and assuming that Maybin, Turner, Porcello are good.

again, please....list the Tigers top picks that were traded to any team and lets compare them with the ones that still are on the tigers with the ones the Royals got...

Because Mia can't afford guys like Miggy, Infante, Sanchez and willing to dump them to a team that could afford them....for whatever they could get doesn't make the Tigers draft successfull...lets actually look at the players the Tigers have drafted...talk about twisting, thats exactly what your doing...saying the Tigers drafts have netted them Miggy, Sanchez and Infante...thats not who the tigers assesses, drafted and developed...they were already done by someone else who is also Notorious for dumping players for money reasons...might as well get something, anything out of them before them going to FA...so the tigers grabbed them for nothing before they became FA's doesn't mean they don't get FA's, lol.


DD and Moores systems are exactly what is in place for the minor leagues, you can point the finger at someone else if you want, they are in charge of the entire system. DD has been there long enough to prove that he hasn't done crap with his minor leagues in any area by the actual MLB players its produced...ok lets compare some system players, not saying they are equal but closest comparable players


Grienke -Verlander
Moose - Nick
Hochevar-Porcello
Holland - Andrew Miller??
Hosmer - ???? Jacob Turner?
Gordon - Kyle Sleeth????
Butler - Cameron Maybin? Scott Moore?
Perez - Avila



Picks after 2010 for both teams, is just a waste of time...I also know why you didn't list ALL the 1st round picks in DD's tenu

also reminding that DD has had 4 more years to develop anything...if an 18 yr old is drafted they don't generally peak til 25 to 27???.....thats 7 to 9 years....Dayton started 7 years ago....DD 11 years ago.

DD is great at getting players right before the bidding wars, will give him that...still wonder why he traded 4 players for Fister, he pitches great, then gets only a few in return...pretty much negates the Fister deal all together to actually weakin the farm system equals a bust. DD has climbed the mountain from 119 losses, maybe the challenge of the climb is over for him and saying, close enough its on the players now..who knows, he did an amazing climb but not near has hard a climb than Dayton has had and still had...much different "weather" conditions on the mountain.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

You really didn't say that did you? " and the only pick they have made that has sucked is Ryan Perry"... Andrew Miller. Kyle Sleeth, Scott Moore during DD's tenure and assuming that Maybin, Turner, Porcello are good.

again, please....list the Tigers top picks that were traded to any team and lets compare them with the ones that still are on the tigers with the ones the Royals got...

Because Mia can't afford guys like Miggy, Infante, Sanchez and willing to dump them to a team that could afford them....for whatever they could get doesn't make the Tigers draft successfull...lets actually look at the players the Tigers have drafted...talk about twisting, thats exactly what your doing...saying the Tigers drafts have netted them Miggy, Sanchez and Infante...thats not who the tigers assesses, drafted and developed...they were already done by someone else who is also Notorious for dumping players for money reasons...might as well get something, anything out of them before them going to FA...so the tigers grabbed them for nothing before they became FA's doesn't mean they don't get FA's, lol.

So you are s aying the Tigers didn't turn their draft picks of Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, Justin Turner, Chance Ruffin, etc. into Miguel Cabrera, Anibal Sanchez, Doug Fister, Omar Infante?!? I could have sworn that is EXACTLY what they did.

A prospect is nothing more than just that -- A prospect, until they prove they can play in the MLB. Detroit has continually used their prospects to trade for MLB ready talent. Not only MLB ready talent, but most of them are under team control for many years -- Like Fister, like Scherzer, like Austin Jackson, etc.

It isn't Detroit's fault these players haven't panned out after trading them away. Once they leave the Tigers system, they have nothing to do with these players. The fact remains though -- Dombrowski has made his living by making these kind of deals and the majority of the time, he is spot on with the deals he has made.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Also like to point out -- It helps KC a little bit when they have had 12 1st round picks in the top 9 in the draft since the year 2000. And 9 of those 12 picks were in the top 5 of the draft.

 

[da55bums]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every team in the MLB have the same opportunity to trade for players from other teams? And if DD didn't draft any talent -- how was he able to pull off these trades?
The majority of Detroit's roster was put together by making deals around the MLB trading 'prospects' for MLB ready players under team control for multiple years. They traded 4 prospects for Fister. They traded 9 prospects for Cabrera and Willis. They traded two of their top prospects for Sanchez and Infante. They traded Granderson and got AJax and Scherzer. They gave up basically nothing to get Peralta.

So while you can say he can't evaluate talent --He has seemed to be doing alright in that department when making trades.

by the way, your wrong......every team in MLB does NOT have the same opportunity to trade for players from another team...but nice try.

 

[da55bums]

Also like to point out -- It helps KC a little bit when they have had 12 1st round picks in the top 9 in the draft since the year 2000. And 9 of those 12 picks were in the top 5 of the draft.

we are comparing DD and Dayton...lets not mix the pot with other picks.

 

[da55bums]

So you are s aying the Tigers didn't turn their draft picks of Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, Justin Turner, Chance Ruffin, etc. into Miguel Cabrera, Anibal Sanchez, Doug Fister, Omar Infante?!? I could have sworn that is EXACTLY what they did.

A prospect is nothing more than just that -- A prospect, until they prove they can play in the MLB. Detroit has continually used their prospects to trade for MLB ready talent. Not only MLB ready talent, but most of them are under team control for many years -- Like Fister, like Scherzer, like Austin Jackson, etc.

It isn't Detroit's fault these players haven't panned out after trading them away. Once they leave the Tigers system, they have nothing to do with these players. The fact remains though -- Dombrowski has made his living by making these kind of deals and the majority of the time, he is spot on with the deals he has made.

NO Miller, Maybin, Turner, Ruffin stayed Miller, Maybin, Turner and Ruffin...lol...thats who the TIgers evaluated and picked, developed, whatever....(on my list I forgot W Myers, just thought of him)....and they GAVE up on to get pending FA's before they became FA's because they could afford more expensive options.

 

[da55bums]

Looking at omar infantes stats he was hitting near or over 300 all year.....what did he do in his last 42 games so huge? I know at AS break, he had some pretty good numbers compared to other 2B. I thought bonafacio was the one who got hot at the end of the year.....but yeah, i guess the royals think omar is better too since they gave him alot of money to take bonafacios job. But keep spinning it.....

let see, Infante bats .330 in last 42 games and thats not "getting" hot...guess he's a .330 type hitter in your world lol...if anyone got HOT, the career .279 hitter hitting .330 is hotter than a career .262 hitter hitting .285.....who is spinning as well as throwing in just garbage opinion...most everyone else on the planet knows who was "hot"...

as you will see by infante's games per season, Boni will be playing at least 1/3 of the year and they will produce very similar...one with more HR/RBI and one with more R/SB...defense is a wash.....you keep putting your twist on it and Infante will be a 8 time all star and Boni will be out of baseball in like 3 more of your posts.

.279 career hitter against .262 hitter, one injury prone, one with power one with speed both going into a larger stadium...yep...still sticking with it after looking at the facts.

 

[da55bums]

DD got detroit to the 2006 WS with the 14th highest payroll......and the only reason it was that high was because the money mags and pudge were getting....

Somebody thinks DD can draft talent.....teams keep trading us great players for our prospects.....can help they do nothing once they leave. Thats that teams fault for not developing them.....and whats that say about moore? He was always getting a top pick, year after year.....and still havent sniffed the playoffs.

Oaklands able to make the playoffs multiple times with a low budget....why cant the royals? They play in the so called worst division in baseball....and according to you, the tigers suck.....so why cant the royals win ONE central title?

I have never said the Tigers suck, lol, you make up half of your hatred of what I have never said...They have weaknesses and those weakness are what is holding them back from winning a WS...its amazing that DD hasn't fixed the bullpen problem in years or the horrific back end of the lineup (personally think that was more on Leyland but will find out this year) a team is only as good as its weakest players...the BP, Bench and a few starters for the last 3 years have sucked HORRIBLY. majors)...if the Tigers had ANYONE in the minor leagues to bring up they would have been better options and actually they would have had realistic shots at winning a world series but the cubboard is bare. IF Nick can play better than Inge did a few years ago, Dirks plays better than or equal to Garcia and Tigers get 2 yes TWO quality middle relievers that they can turn to right now they have zero trustworthy middle guys after losing Smyly, Benoit and Veras...and the seniors Hunter, Nathan and Vmart stay the same...this would the year for them to have a shot at winning a WS...and its not much to go get get 2 middle relievers, not sure why DD wants to keep not getting some relievers they are cheap...after this year, if they make it this year, the 3 seniors can't keep it up much longer, a thing called history says so.

Again, Moore been in KC 7 years, an 18 yr old in his first draft would be 25 yrs old...players don't peak til 25 to 27...come on, you can't be this bad at understanding the game...so he should make the playoffs with 7 guys all under 25 yrs old and youngest 20...got ya...the TIgers can't win a WS with guys at every age, lol, hell go ahead and just add another 39 yr old, that should do it. The Royals first valid plausable/possible attempt was 2013 and that is still having most of the starting roster of under 27 yr olds. This will be their SECOND attempt at the playoffs. Why didn't the Tigers make the playoffs from 07-09 again, DD's what 5th-7th years as GM? they had one of the highest payrolls and still werent making it, whats your answer to why DD didn't get them there then? anyone?, think the White Sox slipped right in and won a world series, lol, just that simple...shows that the Indians, Royals and dare I say Twins (they have the prospects coming) could slide right in and do the same.

You just spout things off Cleaves, thinking frustration of why the Tigers haven't won a WS in the last 7 years and the non stop talk they have talked about winning it on Tigers News, espn, fans talking about since the end of 06, EVERY spring training...Royals fans have only had a couple of years of hype to deal with...at least NeverTrustMe uses some stats, not completely, but attempts to understand a lot of the game and loves his team enough to care to look up some info to be more correct on his views...I am sure your good at something like MSU basketball or football...you don't discuss baseball, you think you tell it like it is and thats the only way it could be, truth be damned or they are just "haters", lol

 

[Nosferatu]

My wish for 2014 is we get passed this bullshit hatred and get back to loving baseball, I might be drunk but dammit baseball is the greatest sport on the planet and we all want our team to win it all. I find myself as a Twins fan even rooting for the Tigers come playoff time just because I want our division to be the best there is! Okay back to the fighting...