AL Central Smack Talk

[broncosmitty]

Because Bourjos is possibly the best defensive outfielder in baseball and you want your best defensive outfielder in center... Seems like a pretty elementary decision to me.

Hahahaha, yeah, okay Sherlock Holmes.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

13 errors at the hot corner last year for miggy.....hell inge used to have more than that throwing to 1st. But i know....bring up his range.....gotta have alot of range to play 3B.

If you don't think range at 3B is valuable, then you have no idea what it takes to play 3B. A 3B with great range cuts down on doubles, doesn't get beat on plays in front of him, and ranges to his left to make plays that the shortstop would have to backhand and throw across his body. Over the course of a full season that leads to a lot of outs that otherwise would have been hits and saves a good number of runs. But go ahead, downplay the importance of range. It's all about errors.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Hahahaha, yeah, okay Sherlock Holmes.

So you're saying Bourjos isn't a great defensive outfielder? Or do you just not know because you don't follow baseball outside of the Tigers?

 

[broncosmitty]

If you include the 3 meaningless games in October -- yes -- he managed to put up respectable numbers. He raised his average over the last two months by 18 points by going 7 for 13 in the last 3 games. In the 2 months prior -- he hit .269 with 64 strikeouts. He struck out at a clip of almost 30% of his ABs.

.269 is respectable -- it is FAR from MVP worthy. If the MVP voting was done at the end of July. Mike Trout would have won in a land slide. Problem is -- there was still 2 months of the season left and Trout didn't come close to putting up the numbers he did the 1st few months, while Cabrera put up other worldly numbers.

You're wasting your time MikeD. Better off trying to get TPaul to admit a Lions Practice Squad member is useless. (I kid, I kid,.... But I'm kinda serious)

 

[broncosmitty]

So you're saying Bourjos isn't a great defensive outfielder? Or do you just not know because you don't follow baseball outside of the Tigers?

I don't care really about Bourjos. But it's pretty funny you tout a guys defense when he gets bumped from his spot by a semi marginal player.(oh please list some defensive numbers, quote Angels brass, and talk about what's widely accepted in your community, whatever suits your mission to somehow PROVE the real world is wrong. you know how people just love that shit) When are you going to put your stat sheets down and realize you're on the wrong thread? This thread is about the Tigers and the Four teams behind them in their division. (Got any great Mike Moustakas stuff? Brian Dozier career OPS+ predictions, Any Danny Duffy projections? Salazar insight? Avisail Garcia UZR info). I don't follow stats on any division if that's what you want to hear. Not your brand of stats anyway. I believe Chris Davis is still leading the East in RBI.

 

[StanMarsh51]

If you include the 3 meaningless games in October -- yes -- he managed to put up respectable numbers. He raised his average over the last two months by 18 points by going 7 for 13 in the last 3 games. In the 2 months prior -- he hit .269 with 64 strikeouts. He struck out at a clip of almost 30% of his ABs.

.269 is respectable -- it is FAR from MVP worthy. If the MVP voting was done at the end of July. Mike Trout would have won in a land slide. Problem is -- there was still 2 months of the season left and Trout didn't come close to putting up the numbers he did the 1st few months, while Cabrera put up other worldly numbers.

Well he also faced much tougher competition to end the season as well than earlier on....32 of the Angels' final 58 games were against the top 4 teams in AL ERA. By comparison, 32 of the Tigers 57 games over the final 2 months were against the 5 worst team ERAs in the AL, with just 7 of those 57 games against a top 5 offense.

In the end, things will even out to a degree (although not fully because of divisional competition differences), but it can skew how a certain stretch in the season looks depending on how the schedule is setup. The Angels had a schedule where they faced a lot of good pitching to end the season, while the Tigers had the opposite.

It's obviously not the players' faults (they play whatever schedule is put before them), but numbers do need to be looked at in context to some degree. Merely saying "he hit X during this stretch" does tell the full story, because did he face bad pitching or good pitching during that stretch.

Obviously there's more to it (and it doesn't fully close the gap), but it does somewhat indicate that Trout was probably better than given credit for down the stretch.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I don't care really about Bourjos. But it's pretty funny you tout a guys defense when he gets bumped from his spot by a semi marginal player.(oh please list some defensive numbers, quote Angels brass, and talk about what's widely accepted in your community, whatever suits your mission to somehow PROVE the real world is wrong. you know how people just love that shit) When are you going to put your stat sheets down and realize you're on the wrong thread? This thread is about the Tigers and the Four teams behind them in their division. (Got any great Mike Moustakas stuff? Brian Dozier career OPS+ predictions, Any Danny Duffy projections? Salazar insight? Avisail Garcia UZR info). I don't follow stats on any division if that's what you want to hear. Not your brand of stats anyway. I believe Chris Davis is still leading the East in RBI.

I don't really get what you're trying to say at all. If Bourjos is one of the Angels' 3 best outfielders coming into the season (he was) and he's the best defensively of the three (he was), why wouldn't you put him in CF? And FWIW, he's hitting .289/.341/.403 with a 110 OPS+, but obviously has been on and off the DL all year. Pretty good for a bottom-of-the-order guy. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that because ARR-BEE-EYEZZZZZ!!! You think Trout should stay in CF even if he's great-but-not-as-good-as one of the other guys, just because?

I'm happy to talk about the ALC. I didn't take the discussion off-topic. Someone else did. All I did was go with the flow of traffic.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

You're wasting your time MikeD. Better off trying to get TPaul to admit a Lions Practice Squad member is useless. (I kid, I kid,.... But I'm kinda serious)

Thank you -- needed a good laugh today. Yeah -- I resorted to just commenting on baseball and just reading thru some of the threads on the Lions page. I love the Lions, but I can't keep my mouth shut when I read TP's assessment on the team. If the Lions were as good as he talks about them -- they are nothing more than a head coach away from being a dynasty in the NFL.

 

[broncosmitty]

I'm really tired of you and your endless stats. If I wanted to see a bunch of numbers, I'd open the fucking phone book. What does it matter to me where Trout plays? He's a leftfielder like most other weak armed outfielders. Pretty elementary stuff, right? Now get out your big book of statistics and start listing numbers of AL Central guys. You have 125 current players to work with, should keep ya busy for awhile. (Meanwhile I've got a couple hundred yellow pages to paruse.).

 

[broncosmitty]

Thank you -- needed a good laugh today. Yeah -- I resorted to just commenting on baseball and just reading thru some of the threads on the Lions page. I love the Lions, but I can't keep my mouth shut when I read TP's assessment on the team. If the Lions were as good as he talks about them -- they are nothing more than a head coach away from being a dynasty in the NFL.

I was kinda being serious though Mike. TPaul loves his Lions. These little nerdos just love looking shit up and typing it out. If you wait long enough, Arther will tell you how RBI don't matter. They used to, I guess, but then baseball changed and runs started being given based off OPS, or OPS+, I forget when the paradigm shift was completed. I think it was around the time Batman got tossed in that underground prison.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I'm really tired of you and your endless stats. If I wanted to see a bunch of numbers, I'd open the fucking phone book. What does it matter to me where Trout plays? He's a leftfielder like most other weak armed outfielders. Pretty elementary stuff, right? Now get out your big book of statistics and start listing numbers of AL Central guys. You have 125 current players to work with, should keep ya busy for awhile. (Meanwhile I've got a couple hundred yellow pages to paruse.).

Why do you hate statistics so much? Especially in baseball? Over 162 games, stats tell you just about everything you need to know, once put into proper context. In a less-complicated sport with a shorter season, I can see ignoring statistics, but not baseball.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Stan Marsh -- Since you wanted to bring up facing the top 4 pitching teams -- I took the stats from Oakland, Seattle, TB and NY (obviously he didn't face Detroit) in 2012.

Cabrera in 117 ABs hit .342 with 11 HRs and 31 RBI's -- His OPS against those 4 teams was 1.097. Prorated over an entire season -- he'd have roughly 60 HRs and 160 RBIs over a full season, if he continued that pace against "the best pitching staffs" in the AL.

As I said -- IT DOESN'T MATTER who is pitching to Cabrera. A team may catch him when he is in a mini-slump, but those usually last only a couple games. In the end -- Cabrera is going to put up big numbers and who is throwing him the ball doesn't matter.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Why do you hate statistics so much? Especially in baseball? Over 162 games, stats tell you just about everything you need to know, once put into proper context. In a less-complicated sport with a shorter season, I can see ignoring statistics, but not baseball.

ISTY -- i don't think it is statistics, as much as it is Sabermetrics. it takes facts and uses educated guesses to come up with numbers. When someone tells me Cabrera's WAR is only 6 point whatever -- I just laugh, because unless you are going to put another superstar at 3B -- there is ZERO chance Detroit is only 6 games off in the standings if you put an average player at 3B.

I take the majority of Sabermetric stats and completely disregard them, because actual play doesn't dictate most of the stats, it is mathetical equations designed to come up with educated guesses and nothing more, yet people talk about them as if they are fact.

 

[jdwills126]

Why do you hate statistics so much? Especially in baseball? Over 162 games, stats tell you just about everything you need to know, once put into proper context. In a less-complicated sport with a shorter season, I can see ignoring statistics, but not baseball.

Stats lie and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to.

Everyone is discounting wins by a pitcher to justify Yu Darvish and Felix Hernandez as legit Cy Young Candidates but really Scherzer gets run support and is up by four in the 6th he shouldn't challenge hitters? Why try to be perfect when you have a big lead so his era and whip may suffer.

When is a Stolen base not a stolen base??? When the game is out of hand or it's a judgement on catcher indifference.

And WAR what a stupid ass assessment tool it measures stats as if they would hold true in the future based upon some unknown quantity replacing a player.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

ISTY -- i don't think it is statistics, as much as it is Sabermetrics. it takes facts and uses educated guesses to come up with numbers. When someone tells me Cabrera's WAR is only 6 point whatever -- I just laugh, because unless you are going to put another superstar at 3B -- there is ZERO chance Detroit is only 6 games off in the standings if you put an average player at 3B.

I take the majority of Sabermetric stats and completely disregard them, because actual play doesn't dictate most of the stats, it is mathetical equations designed to come up with educated guesses and nothing more, yet people talk about them as if they are fact.

This post just reeks of ignorance. You most likely haven't ever looked at how most sabermetric stats were created, or how they're calculated. You also apparently don't know what WAR is supposed to represent.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Stats lie and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to.

Everyone is discounting wins by a pitcher to justify Yu Darvish and Felix Hernandez as legit Cy Young Candidates but really Scherzer gets run support and is up by four in the 6th he shouldn't challenge hitters? Why try to be perfect when you have a big lead so his era and whip may suffer.

When is a Stolen base not a stolen base??? When the game is out of hand or it's a judgement on catcher indifference.

And WAR what a stupid ass assessment tool it measures stats as if they would hold true in the future based upon some unknown quantity replacing a player.

Scherzer is in the Cy Young race regardless of his record. He's having a great season.

I don't know what your comment about stolen bases is supposed to mean or be a response to.

Why is WAR stupid? Because you don't agree with it? Because you don't value defense or baserunning? Because you don't recognize that different things are expected of players from different positions? Can you please explain how it is stupid? Do you not know what it is meant to represent?

 

[broncosmitty]

Why do you hate statistics so much? Especially in baseball? Over 162 games, stats tell you just about everything you need to know, once put into proper context. In a less-complicated sport with a shorter season, I can see ignoring statistics, but not baseball.

They're boring. Misleading. Lack context. (When you pick and choose the stats, which is generally the case)Can be skewed easily. And more and more are based on conjecture. No pitcher ever toed the slab and thought, "I'm gonna improve my ERA+today". Not hitter has dug in the box with a runner on third, turned to the catcher and said, "Watch my OPS soar buddy." Players play to win. Plain and simple. Along the way, good ones put up numbers, but I don't need 1,879 different stats to evaluate who's good and who isn't. And I really don't need to read about Jeff Kent, Peter Bourjos and company on this thread. Alejandro De Aza doesn't get any pub around here anymore. I could handle reading about all he does for Ventura and the SouthSiders. (Not cleaves gang of hoodlums, the high priced little league team)

 

[navamind]

They're boring. Misleading. Lack context. (When you pick and choose the stats, which is generally the case)Can be skewed easily. And more and more are based on conjecture. No pitcher ever toed the slab and thought, "I'm gonna improve my ERA+today". Not hitter has dug in the box with a runner on third, turned to the catcher and said, "Watch my OPS soar buddy." Players play to win. Plain and simple. Along the way, good ones put up numbers, but I don't need 1,879 different stats to evaluate who's good and who isn't. And I really don't need to read about Jeff Kent, Peter Bourjos and company on this thread. Alejandro De Aza doesn't get any pub around here anymore. I could handle reading about all he does for Ventura and the SouthSiders. (Not cleaves gang of hoodlums, the high priced little league team)

Oh, but traditional stats don't?

 

[Cleaves2000]

Really? In the final 2 months of the season, Trout's numbers:

49 runs
12 HR, 28 RBI
.283/.383/.500
18/20 steals

How is a .883 OPS the final 2 months along with 49 runs, 12 HR, and 18 steals "average at best"....sounds like an exaggeration on your part.

Not to mention, a .883 OPS while 32 of his 58 games those final 2 months were against the 4 best team ERAs in the AL (Oakland, Seattle, Rays, Tigers). A lot better than average, wouldn't you say?

Since when is 283 considered MVPish? Thats not bad, but definitely not great....especially when your team is fighting for the playoffs

 

[Cleaves2000]

Omar Vizquel? That's the best strawman argument you can come up with?

As for why I'm here, the board is slow today and this thread looked like one of the few that had activity.

Wow thats too bad .....sounds like someone needs a life. Is defense the best someone can come up with in an MVP debate.....oh forgot...stolen bases too eh?

Miggy 2012 MVP!!!