2024 Training Camp stuff

[DanBengalfan]

he wants 35 million a year (or more) and the Bengals have 19 million in cap space. His current salary is around 7.7 million (round to 8)

19 + 8 = 27 so we can pay him 27 million this year, and a bit more each progressing year.

So it would see the Bengals need to "back load" the contract, which Chase and his agent probably do not like. So, we will see a bit more of Higgins, Iosivas, Burton, and the guys for the first several weeks of the season. next year, when Higgins is out, we can afford to swing that money to Chase.

 

[Cincyfan78]

The Chase situation is getting interesting. My guess is that the Bengals aren't even close to Chase's agent asking price and have indicated that they aren't interested in pursuing an extension until next offseason given the money demands (total guess on my part)..... The agent could have then told Chase to move from hold-in to hold-out. Chase was due a roster bonus on the third day of camp - This represents 3 of the 4 million that he was slated to make this season. So, at this point, he will only get paid 1 million more to play thi season. No idea on whether the Bengals can go after that bonus, but I don't think they can.

The Bengals have worked with Chase. Let him report, collect the bonus, and attend practices but not participate. They haven't fined him and they've been positive about the situation to the press. But, I think they need to consider the fact that Chase and his agent don't have a lot of financial incentive to return to practice. Only 1 million stands to be lost. Makes me wonder if a more hardball approach has been needed from the beginning. Fine the player that isn't practicing.

Normally, I think I'd agree...but Chase is going to get re-signed...so in this instance, and with a top 5 WR, I think you do what the Bengals have done to show good faith. Kind of like "Hey, we could have fined you and you got paid nothing, but we didn't because we want to work with you. All we ask is that you work with us as well"....

In the in - He's going to suit up. He's going to play.

 

[Cincyfan78]

he wants 35 million a year (or more) and the Bengals have 19 million in cap space. His current salary is around 7.7 million (round to 8)

19 + 8 = 27 so we can pay him 27 million this year, and a bit more each progressing year.

So it would see the Bengals need to "back load" the contract, which Chase and his agent probably do not like. So, we will see a bit more of Higgins, Iosivas, Burton, and the guys for the first several weeks of the season. next year, when Higgins is out, we can afford to swing that money to Chase.

That works IF you paid out on a per-year basis...usually that's not how contracts are set up.

Chase signs for 35 a year over 4 years...$140M. Of that, how much is bonus. That's the key because you can pay that up front and spread the cap-hit over the years.

Usually - that means a lower up front yearly salary because the player is getting the bonus...and you see a larger salary per year at the end of the contract. That's why you see players get cut, or restructure, with 1-2 years left on the deal and usually that extension is bonus based so they can get paid, spread the cap-hit out...

So, in short (too late, I know) the Bengals have more than enough room right now to make an extension. They have zero need to do so. Chase wants to get paid more now, but has no leverage. Not only is he under contract this year, and next year, but the Organization has 2 potential Franchise Tags to use. As previous players have found out - the Bengals use that 1st tag - and they are not trading you...so you have only 1 option, really - eventually you suit up so that the Bengals will release you into Free Agency that following year. Bates, Williams, Higgins....they all found this out.

It also behooves the Bengals, really, to extend him next year when his 5th year cap jumps. It's more beneficial for them, as it could actually lower next years' cap thanks to his bonus payments and years to be extended. Again, Chase has very little leverage. He can sit out ... and he'll get paid this year...but if he sits out next year, he stands to lose a lot more money than this year when the Bengals have shown they are at least willing to play nice and allow him to collect on his 3M bonus. I agree with this move (see previous post) but not sure that it will be the same situation if this occurs next year.

 

[cincygrad]

Normally, I think I'd agree...but Chase is going to get re-signed...so in this instance, and with a top 5 WR, I think you do what the Bengals have done to show good faith. Kind of like "Hey, we could have fined you and you got paid nothing, but we didn't because we want to work with you. All we ask is that you work with us as well"....

In the in - He's going to suit up. He's going to play.

My issue with Chase is that I'm not sure what point he thinks he is making. The Bengals have been very clear that aside from Burrow, he was there top priority. That hasn't changed. The Bengals aren't cutting him a deal for over 30 million per year this offseason. No team would.... Why would you do it, when he is contractually on the books for the next two years at about 25 million. The Vikings wouldn't do a deal with J-Jets last year because they still had two years of control. I get that people think they are saving money in the future, but unless the player does a team-friendly deal, there isn't much incentive for the team to do the deal right now. The math is more in the Bengals favor to wait until at least next year, when he is slated to make over 20 and it all goes on the cap. For, now, he's a bargain and it saves cash. I digress..... So, why is Chase holding in? He won't sign a deal for cheaper than 30 million per year. To me, it's a silly stunt that just impacts his ability to have a big year. I think he might have more talent than just about any receiver in the NFL - But I also don't think he has demonstrated that he is top 3 at this time. I think it's time for him to really show he is the best, and I do think at some point practice does matter.

It's a pretty interesting contrast with Tee Higgins. Tee has absolutely no commitment from the team. And he didn't have to show up for camp - He could have signed his deal right before the season. Yet, the dude is out there playing in preseason games and a pouring rain storm at a joint practice with Chicago. He is betting on himself. He plans to put up a monster year and cash in and it shows. Ja'Marr is wearing a hat on the sidelines.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

My issue with Chase is that I'm not sure what point he thinks he is making. The Bengals have been very clear that aside from Burrow, he was there top priority. That hasn't changed. The Bengals aren't cutting him a deal for over 30 million per year this offseason. No team would.... Why would you do it, when he is contractually on the books for the next two years at about 25 million. The Vikings wouldn't do a deal with J-Jets last year because they still had two years of control. I get that people think they are saving money in the future, but unless the player does a team-friendly deal, there isn't much incentive for the team to do the deal right now. The math is more in the Bengals favor to wait until at least next year, when he is slated to make over 20 and it all goes on the cap. For, now, he's a bargain and it saves cash. I digress..... So, why is Chase holding in? He won't sign a deal for cheaper than 30 million per year. To me, it's a silly stunt that just impacts his ability to have a big year. I think he might have more talent than just about any receiver in the NFL - But I also don't think he has demonstrated that he is top 3 at this time. I think it's time for him to really show he is the best, and I do think at some point practice does matter.

It's a pretty interesting contrast with Tee Higgins. Tee has absolutely no commitment from the team. And he didn't have to show up for camp - He could have signed his deal right before the season. Yet, the dude is out there playing in preseason games and a pouring rain storm at a joint practice with Chicago. He is betting on himself. He plans to put up a monster year and cash in and it shows. Ja'Marr is wearing a hat on the sidelines.

Chase's deal is not a new contract, nor would any team do that. It is an extension beyond 2025. The only reason to get it done now is it gives Chase much more money at this time through signing bonus, and it secures where he is going to be for the next 6 years. I am sure a 4 year extension is probably where it is going to be, so 4 years on to his remaining 2. This also allows the Bengals to absorb some of that signing bonus and guarantees over the next two year along with those 4 to lower the cap cost overall.

It really is a win win in this scenario because yes, it increases his cost this year when he is still cheaper, it also allows the Bengals to disburse the monetary cap hit out over 6 years instead of 4, even though it is a 4 year deal. It is more cap friendly, allowing the Bengals to sign more free agents later on in the contracts of him and Burrow.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Chase's deal is not a new contract, nor would any team do that. It is an extension beyond 2025. The only reason to get it done now is it gives Chase much more money at this time through signing bonus, and it secures where he is going to be for the next 6 years. I am sure a 4 year extension is probably where it is going to be, so 4 years on to his remaining 2. This also allows the Bengals to absorb some of that signing bonus and guarantees over the next two year along with those 4 to lower the cap cost overall.

It really is a win win in this scenario because yes, it increases his cost this year when he is still cheaper, it also allows the Bengals to disburse the monetary cap hit out over 6 years instead of 4, even though it is a 4 year deal. It is more cap friendly, allowing the Bengals to sign more free agents later on in the contracts of him and Burrow.

This.

You extend him past the year 5, maybe even with a slight bump in year 5...but you give him a 3-4 year extension it's 5-6 more years of Chase (this year, next year already under contract and the following 3-4 years).

This means you can give him a bonus, a rather large one, and start paying that portion now - thus giving him immediate cash, while also securing the next 5-6 years. Team gets him for at least 4+ more years before a restructure or whatever, and Chase gets long-term security.

 

[cincygrad]

Chase's deal is not a new contract, nor would any team do that. It is an extension beyond 2025. The only reason to get it done now is it gives Chase much more money at this time through signing bonus, and it secures where he is going to be for the next 6 years. I am sure a 4 year extension is probably where it is going to be, so 4 years on to his remaining 2. This also allows the Bengals to absorb some of that signing bonus and guarantees over the next two year along with those 4 to lower the cap cost overall.

It really is a win win in this scenario because yes, it increases his cost this year when he is still cheaper, it also allows the Bengals to disburse the monetary cap hit out over 6 years instead of 4, even though it is a 4 year deal. It is more cap friendly, allowing the Bengals to sign more free agents later on in the contracts of him and Burrow.

I agree that it is an extension. However, even if you extend 3 years to the two he has left on his deal, you are still going to have to average over 30 million per year of each of those years.... With a bunch of it front-loaded. My assumption is that he would want at least 30 million of cash guaranteed for year 1 and for year 2 in the form of signing bonuses and roster bonus. And yes, from a cap perspective, that could be spread out over the rest of the deal. Then I would assume that the there would need to be another roster guarantee in there somewhere to make sure his contract doesn't balloon out to 30+ million cap hits (plus the spread cap hits) over the final 3 years. While I agree that this is completely manageable from a cap perspective, I don't think it is as easy from a cash perspective. This year, they owe Burrow a 55 million dollar option.

Long story short - I don't think the Bengals want to part with that much cash this offseason. Now, if Chase wants a Jaylen Waddle deal that would be different.

 

[cincygrad]

Looking back through the Burrow deal - Click on the cash breakdown..... After this season, much of Burrow's cash will come from contract - not bonus. That is TV money..... His bonuses beyond this year are 10 million or less. That is a lot less cash to have in escrow over the the next couple of years. I think the way that they structured the Burrow deal was intended to pay him all the guaranteed money he deserved, while freeing up new cash for a Chase extension in 2025. I just don't think they have the cash to pay out a big frontloaded bonus this year and to put more in escrow for future guarantees. That changes next offseason.

Joe Burrow | NFL Contracts & Salaries | Spotrac.com

Joe Burrow contract and salary cap details, full contract breakdowns, salaries, signing bonus, roster bonus, dead money, and valuations.

www.spotrac.com

 

[Cincyfan78]

Looking back through the Burrow deal - Click on the cash breakdown..... After this season, much of Burrow's cash will come from contract - not bonus. That is TV money..... His bonuses beyond this year are 10 million or less. That is a lot less cash to have in escrow over the the next couple of years. I think the way that they structured the Burrow deal was intended to pay him all the guaranteed money he deserved, while freeing up new cash for a Chase extension in 2025. I just don't think they have the cash to pay out a big frontloaded bonus this year and to put more in escrow for future guarantees. That changes next offseason.

Joe Burrow | NFL Contracts & Salaries | Spotrac.com

Joe Burrow contract and salary cap details, full contract breakdowns, salaries, signing bonus, roster bonus, dead money, and valuations.

www.spotrac.com

The Escrow issue is going to become a major headache for a few franchises that don't have owners who have made their bones in other businesses outside of the NFL team they own. It's only a few, but without some kind of agreement - these few are going to struggle as guarantees continue to rise and rise.

The easy thing would be for the NFL to back the guarantee - the NFL makes Billions on Billions and could easily do this...but I also get exactly why they do not want to do this. So, the next question becomes - how do teams get their escrow backed?

 

[Cincyfan78]

Money Mac - Bengals are willing to deal and pay - sometimes these things take time...Chase's time may not yet be this year...

Money Mac. Literally. The #Bengals agreed to terms on a three-year, $16.5 million extension with K Evan McPherson, per his agents at
@SPORTSTARSNYC
.McPherson will earn $10 million in new money in the first year of the deal, highest ever for a three-year kicker extension.

x.com

x.com

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I agree that it is an extension. However, even if you extend 3 years to the two he has left on his deal, you are still going to have to average over 30 million per year of each of those years.... With a bunch of it front-loaded. My assumption is that he would want at least 30 million of cash guaranteed for year 1 and for year 2 in the form of signing bonuses and roster bonus. And yes, from a cap perspective, that could be spread out over the rest of the deal. Then I would assume that the there would need to be another roster guarantee in there somewhere to make sure his contract doesn't balloon out to 30+ million cap hits (plus the spread cap hits) over the final 3 years. While I agree that this is completely manageable from a cap perspective, I don't think it is as easy from a cash perspective. This year, they owe Burrow a 55 million dollar option.

Long story short - I don't think the Bengals want to part with that much cash this offseason. Now, if Chase wants a Jaylen Waddle deal that would be different.

Word is, it isn't the Bengals holding up this deal so to say. Chase and his agent may be looking to wait and see what Lamb and Aiyuk wind up doing before pushing the envelop. They also may be willing to wait until next year in case salaries go up more. Chase is looking to be the highest paid WR for more than a few days. He wants these other huge contracts to land so he can top them all and be top earner at his position for more than a year. That is a rumor on a site I clicked into earlier....not sure if it was CincyJungle or another bengals feed site that popped up on my phone.

Even if that is the case...the Bengals are going to have to break down the guaranteed money for Chase.

I don't think the Bengals will do less than 4 years, and wouldn't do more than 5. I think 4 is probably the most likely extension.

Let's assume he is getting $36 million a year with a 70% guaranteed contract.

That would be 4 / 144 with $100 million guaranteed. The guaranteed money can come in chunks over a couple different years. The signing bonus becomes the biggest helper. If they give Chase $36 million signing bonus...that would all be paid immediately but broken over cap wise over the 6 years of the contract $6 mill per year on the cap count for 6 years. Then the other $64 million would have to be put in escrow based on time periods set forth in the contract. $32 million can be deposited next year and another $32 million the following year. This doesn't count against the cap on these individual years, but is part of the escrow payments.

So realistically, Chase would be paid similar to the following schedule:

2024 - $4.862 is what he is scheduled to make
2024 - $9.8 is what he counts against the cap this year
2024 - $36 million in new money (signing Bonus) - Salary stays the same at 4.862 million - Cap Hit goes to $15.8 million

2025 - 5th year option current value $21.8 million - Cap hit goes to $27.8 million (Bengals pay additional $32 million to escrow)

2026 - 1st year of new extension - $22 million salary - Cap Hit $28 million (Bengals pay additional $32 million to escrow)

2027 - 2nd year of contract - $21 million salary - Cap hit $27 million

2028 - 3rd year of contract - $21 million salary - Cap hit $27 million

2029 - Final year of contract - $20 million salary - Cap hit $26 million

I don't have the full understanding of how the cap and escrow work, but I think it would break down like this over a few years, approximately.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Word is, it isn't the Bengals holding up this deal so to say. Chase and his agent may be looking to wait and see what Lamb and Aiyuk wind up doing before pushing the envelop. They also may be willing to wait until next year in case salaries go up more. Chase is looking to be the highest paid WR for more than a few days. He wants these other huge contracts to land so he can top them all and be top earner at his position for more than a year. That is a rumor on a site I clicked into earlier....not sure if it was CincyJungle or another bengals feed site that popped up on my phone.

Even if that is the case...the Bengals are going to have to break down the guaranteed money for Chase.

I don't think the Bengals will do less than 4 years, and wouldn't do more than 5. I think 4 is probably the most likely extension.

Let's assume he is getting $36 million a year with a 70% guaranteed contract.

That would be 4 / 144 with $100 million guaranteed. The guaranteed money can come in chunks over a couple different years. The signing bonus becomes the biggest helper. If they give Chase $36 million signing bonus...that would all be paid immediately but broken over cap wise over the 6 years of the contract $6 mill per year on the cap count for 6 years. Then the other $64 million would have to be put in escrow based on time periods set forth in the contract. $32 million can be deposited next year and another $32 million the following year. This doesn't count against the cap on these individual years, but is part of the escrow payments.

So realistically, Chase would be paid similar to the following schedule:

2024 - $4.862 is what he is scheduled to make
2024 - $9.8 is what he counts against the cap this year
2024 - $36 million in new money (signing Bonus) - Salary stays the same at 4.862 million - Cap Hit goes to $15.8 million

2025 - 5th year option current value $21.8 million - Cap hit goes to $27.8 million (Bengals pay additional $32 million to escrow)

2026 - 1st year of new extension - $22 million salary - Cap Hit $28 million (Bengals pay additional $32 million to escrow)

2027 - 2nd year of contract - $21 million salary - Cap hit $27 million

2028 - 3rd year of contract - $21 million salary - Cap hit $27 million

2029 - Final year of contract - $20 million salary - Cap hit $26 million

I don't have the full understanding of how the cap and escrow work, but I think it would break down like this over a few years, approximately.

I think you are right - they are waiting and the issue is, rumored, that Jefferson's deal so far outpaced the expected #1 spot that other teams are balking at meeting/exceeding that amount.

So things have slowed to a crawl because other teams (Dallas, 49ers) have refused to meet/exceed that number.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I think you are right - they are waiting and the issue is, rumored, that Jefferson's deal so far outpaced the expected #1 spot that other teams are balking at meeting/exceeding that amount.

So things have slowed to a crawl because other teams (Dallas, 49ers) have refused to meet/exceed that number.

Problem is, Jefferson deserves to be the #1 paid WR by a bunch, no one else really deserves that, so the WR's need to stop asking to be paid more than him.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Problem is, Jefferson deserves to be the #1 paid WR by a bunch, no one else really deserves that, so the WR's need to stop asking to be paid more than him.

I don't disagree - but that's not how agents/players usually work...so therein lies the issue. They are asking for money around that mark, and teams are refusing to meet them.

FWIW - I'm all for guys getting paid whatever the Market is for their skill set - but not every deal should be a deal that tops the last deal. That's just dumb - and more teams need to hold the line when players do this kind of crap.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I don't disagree - but that's not how agents/players usually work...so therein lies the issue. They are asking for money around that mark, and teams are refusing to meet them.

FWIW - I'm all for guys getting paid whatever the Market is for their skill set - but not every deal should be a deal that tops the last deal. That's just dumb - and more teams need to hold the line when players do this kind of crap.

But that is called collusion, and illegal in the league. It goes against the collective bargaining agreement. But I think the players and the NFL need to come up with a pay scale for players who reach certain benchmarks. It is not a sliding scale per year, still based on contracts at that given year - so you can sign a player to a multi year deal still, but it is based on that years position caps based on previous track records. If the salary cap goes up they can bump player caps like they do in the draft. There has to be an equitable way to meet expectations of players and give owners more generalized understanding of what a player is going to be compensated based on their track record. Prevents hold outs, creates the market, allows owners to plan, and it wouldn't prevent the wonderful world of free agency.

 

[cincygrad]

Word is, it isn't the Bengals holding up this deal so to say. Chase and his agent may be looking to wait and see what Lamb and Aiyuk wind up doing before pushing the envelop. They also may be willing to wait until next year in case salaries go up more. Chase is looking to be the highest paid WR for more than a few days. He wants these other huge contracts to land so he can top them all and be top earner at his position for more than a year. That is a rumor on a site I clicked into earlier....not sure if it was CincyJungle or another bengals feed site that popped up on my phone.

Even if that is the case...the Bengals are going to have to break down the guaranteed money for Chase.

I don't think the Bengals will do less than 4 years, and wouldn't do more than 5. I think 4 is probably the most likely extension.

Let's assume he is getting $36 million a year with a 70% guaranteed contract.

That would be 4 / 144 with $100 million guaranteed. The guaranteed money can come in chunks over a couple different years. The signing bonus becomes the biggest helper. If they give Chase $36 million signing bonus...that would all be paid immediately but broken over cap wise over the 6 years of the contract $6 mill per year on the cap count for 6 years. Then the other $64 million would have to be put in escrow based on time periods set forth in the contract. $32 million can be deposited next year and another $32 million the following year. This doesn't count against the cap on these individual years, but is part of the escrow payments.

So realistically, Chase would be paid similar to the following schedule:

2024 - $4.862 is what he is scheduled to make
2024 - $9.8 is what he counts against the cap this year
2024 - $36 million in new money (signing Bonus) - Salary stays the same at 4.862 million - Cap Hit goes to $15.8 million

2025 - 5th year option current value $21.8 million - Cap hit goes to $27.8 million (Bengals pay additional $32 million to escrow)

2026 - 1st year of new extension - $22 million salary - Cap Hit $28 million (Bengals pay additional $32 million to escrow)

2027 - 2nd year of contract - $21 million salary - Cap hit $27 million

2028 - 3rd year of contract - $21 million salary - Cap hit $27 million

2029 - Final year of contract - $20 million salary - Cap hit $26 million

I don't have the full understanding of how the cap and escrow work, but I think it would break down like this over a few years, approximately.

I don't disagree with your structure. But, I still think cash (not cap) is a big issue for the Bengals. And I imagine they have some cashflow challenges right now given the guarantees in the Burrow deal. It strikes me as important to note that the cash outlays to Burrow (in the form of bonuses) become much less starting next year. I think they purposely did this as a way of planning for a Chase extension in 2025.

 

[cincygrad]

The Escrow issue is going to become a major headache for a few franchises that don't have owners who have made their bones in other businesses outside of the NFL team they own. It's only a few, but without some kind of agreement - these few are going to struggle as guarantees continue to rise and rise.

The easy thing would be for the NFL to back the guarantee - the NFL makes Billions on Billions and could easily do this...but I also get exactly why they do not want to do this. So, the next question becomes - how do teams get their escrow backed?

Private equity..... The NFL owners have been meeting to discuss plans for how private equity can play a part in team ownership. To me, this is the only real way forward for traditional NFL owner families..... Have someone that can guarantee contracts with liquid assets in exchange for a small fraction of the team. The investors know the value of the franchises are safe and their liquid assets will provide a huge ROI over time. The owners that don't have other lucrative, outside of football, revenue sources can then have their liquid asset needs taken care of without giving up too much of their team's worth.

 

[Cincyfan78]

But that is called collusion, and illegal in the league. It goes against the collective bargaining agreement. But I think the players and the NFL need to come up with a pay scale for players who reach certain benchmarks. It is not a sliding scale per year, still based on contracts at that given year - so you can sign a player to a multi year deal still, but it is based on that years position caps based on previous track records. If the salary cap goes up they can bump player caps like they do in the draft. There has to be an equitable way to meet expectations of players and give owners more generalized understanding of what a player is going to be compensated based on their track record. Prevents hold outs, creates the market, allows owners to plan, and it wouldn't prevent the wonderful world of free agency.

No - collusion is when teams get together to purposely hold the line.

There doesn't need to be a meeting of the teams to realize common sense...guys who are, let's say, Tee Higgins should not be getting Jefferson money.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

No - collusion is when teams get together to purposely hold the line.

There doesn't need to be a meeting of the teams to realize common sense...guys who are, let's say, Tee Higgins should not be getting Jefferson money.

Correct, but how do all owners understand this when you have a crazy desperate team like the Browns saying, okay we will give you a 100% guaranteed contract to a QB who has been out of football for a year and has 26 sexual assault liability suits ongoing? Teams want to win, and when you haven't won for a while, that is when crazy occurs.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Private equity..... The NFL owners have been meeting to discuss plans for how private equity can play a part in team ownership. To me, this is the only real way forward for traditional NFL owner families..... Have someone that can guarantee contracts with liquid assets in exchange for a small fraction of the team. The investors know the value of the franchises are safe and their liquid assets will provide a huge ROI over time. The owners that don't have other lucrative, outside of football, revenue sources can then have their liquid asset needs taken care of without giving up too much of their team's worth.

What I want to know, who gets the interest of this money that is put into a money making escrow? I know it is not the player. If t he owner receives the interest I can't imagine this is an issue at all for owners then, but I doubt they do. Does the league just get to keep the interest?