2023 HOF Ballot

[Pure Steel]

scarcity at some positions make sense to me... like catcher... But then there are players like Joe Mauer, who moved to first base to extend his career, and his stats now are looked as if he was always a catcher... that is the bigger problem...

Ernie Banks played more games at 1st base......

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Ernie Banks played more games at 1st base......

but he was a clear HOFer no matter what position... My point was that when you give a player a bonus for position, you cant include the rest of that players career with the classification of that position...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I brought up Jeter to the Yankee fan who said Bumgarner was overrated. That's why I'm comparing them.

except the comparison makes no sense... if you want to compare tino Martinez to bumgarner that is more valid... we yankee fans LOVED TINO!!!

 

[Cedrique]

utley is an interesting one... but he is not a first ballot caliber player... which i think is dumb as well, that players can be ranked by whether they are first year ballot good or not... if you are not top 10 of any HOF class, you should not make the HOF...

Yeah I'm not sure he'll make it. I'd like to see it but who knows. But I was responding to Jayson Stark's assumption that someone from the Phillies of that time period would make it. I think Utley is a better candidate than Rollins. His WAR for 2005-2010 was 7.3,7.3,7.8,,9.0,8.2,5.8. He probably should have been top 5 MVP most of those years but I think people gave votes to Rollins and Howard, thinking Utley would win one or more eventually. But alas, the injuries took their toll. Utley also had some things that don't show up in the obvious stats people look at. 200+ HBP, one of the best base runners ever. He didn't rack up tons of stolen bases but his success rate was 88%, I'm guessing one of the highest of all time for guys with over 150 SB. You could also probably take off 25-30 RBI from Howard's total if he didn't have Utley running over infielders at second to break up double plays.

 

[msgkings322]

except the comparison makes no sense... if you want to compare tino Martinez to bumgarner that is more valid... we yankee fans LOVED TINO!!!

Does Tino have a World Series MVP and a top 3 all time career postseason performance record? Bum deserves every bit of the accolades he gets. Again, he's NOT a Hall of Famer. How does that make him overrated?

 

[chappee11]

Put Dwight Evans in and take Rice out and I'm good......

Evans should probably be in. Especially under today’s standard. The argument with Rice was always that he was the “most feared hitter in the league” for a few years. Not sure if that’s even true.

 

[chappee11]

That's a really dumb take. Positions affect your stats and the Hall should include the best at every position. There's already more OFs and 1Bs in the Hall you don't have to push that even further.

Posey also won MVP, and ROY, and 3 rings as the team leader, he's a lock. The story of baseball needs to include all positions not just OFs.

Catchers should be like HOF kickers in the NFL. There are hardly any that are in. Either you are a clear case like Irod or Piazza, or you just don’t belong. Posey was pretty good and was on some successful teams. He also crashed and burned pretty fast. He was essentially done at 32. Does that make him a “lock”? Not at all IMO.

 

[calsnowskier]

scarcity at some positions make sense to me... like catcher... But then there are players like Joe Mauer, who moved to first base to extend his career, and his stats now are looked as if he was always a catcher... that is the bigger problem...

I don’t know that he has that rep. I think the position move hurt him because he LOST that ”bonus multiplier” for being a catcher with the move.

 

[chappee11]

scarcity at some positions make sense to me... like catcher... But then there are players like Joe Mauer, who moved to first base to extend his career, and his stats now are looked as if he was always a catcher... that is the bigger problem...

That’s a good point. But longevity does matter. I’d actually look more favorably at Posey’s candidacy had he moved to 1B and put up more numbers. He didn’t do it long enough.

 

[Cedrique]

Catchers should be like HOF kickers in the NFL. There are hardly any that are in. Either you are a clear case like Irod or Piazza, or you just don’t belong. Posey was pretty good and was on some successful teams. He also crashed and burned pretty fast. He was essentially done at 32. Does that make him a “lock”? Not at all IMO.

I don't like the analogy. I think DHs should be like HOF kickers.

 

[msgkings322]

Catchers should be like HOF kickers in the NFL. There are hardly any that are in. Either you are a clear case like Irod or Piazza, or you just don’t belong. Posey was pretty good and was on some successful teams. He also crashed and burned pretty fast. He was essentially done at 32. Does that make him a “lock”? Not at all IMO.

Catchers are like kickers LOL. Ok we know where your knowledge level is then....

He didn't "crash and burn" his last year was one of his best. You don't know what you're talking about, he's a lock. He might be first ballot.

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't like the analogy. I think DHs should be like HOF kickers.

DHs should be like HOF ticket takers.

 

[Cedrique]

DHs should be like HOF ticket takers.

yeah, with Baines, Edgar and Ortiz in I guess we need to look for some ticket takers and hot dog vendors on the upcoming ballots. Has Max Patkin ever made the ballot?

 

[chappee11]

Catchers are like kickers LOL. Ok we know where your knowledge level is then....

He didn't "crash and burn" his last year was one of his best. You don't know what you're talking about, he's a lock. He might be first ballot.

Yeah 1500 hits and 158HR’s is clearly one of the all-time elites. I don’t know what I was thinking. They should waive the 5 year window and just enshrine him now.

 

[Cedrique]

For the record, I'm putting an asterisk next to the names of all these guys who will be playing with the 18" bases this season.

 

[chappee11]

I don't like the analogy. I think DHs should be like HOF kickers.

Maybe that’s more appropriate. But if you want to get in as a catcher, you shouldn’t get a pass on putting up elite numbers because “the position is so demanding”. I have an issue with Yadier Molina for the same reason. Everyone calls him a lock and I don’t get it.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Maybe that’s more appropriate. But if you want to get in as a catcher, you shouldn’t get a pass on putting up elite numbers because “the position is so demanding”. I have an issue with Yadier Molina for the same reason. Everyone calls him a lock and I don’t get it.

Molina is a definite. He has elite defense, elite longevity both at the catcher position.

His offense is not getting him in!!

 

[calsnowskier]

Maybe that’s more appropriate. But if you want to get in as a catcher, you shouldn’t get a pass on putting up elite numbers because “the position is so demanding”. I have an issue with Yadier Molina for the same reason. Everyone calls him a lock and I don’t get it.

I am not a HUGE fan, but his longevity is impressive. His bat has always been a liability, though, and that is a legit argument against him. He is only half a player.

But he is still better than a DH, because the team had to deal with the fact he couldn’t hit and they had to make the conscious decision that his defense was worth the empty spot in the lineup.

IMHO, Molina is a HOFer because of his elite D and his longevity. The fact he played his entire career with one team and at one position helps his cause. He is not an inner-circle HOFer, but every HOFer does not have to be the elite of the elite.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am not a HUGE fan, but his longevity is impressive. His bat has always been a liability, though, and that is a legit argument against him. He is only half a player.

But he is still better than a DH, because the team had to deal with the fact he couldn’t hit and they had to make the conscious decision that his defense was worth the empty spot in the lineup.

IMHO, Molina is a HOFer because of his elite D and his longevity. The fact he played his entire career with one team and at one position helps his cause. He is not an inner-circle HOFer, but every HOFer does not have to be the elite of the elite.

i agree 100% but precedent, Bob Boone and Jim Sundberg are not HOFers...

I do think Molina has a better reputation, and playing his career with one team, and that one team being the cardinals helps... Cardinals really help... being on a big reputation team really helps promoting that player...

 

[calsnowskier]

i agree 100% but precedent, Bob Boone and Jim Sundberg are not HOFers...

I do think Molina has a better reputation, and playing his career with one team, and that one team being the cardinals helps... Cardinals really help... being on a big reputation team really helps promoting that player...

Boone and Sundberg are good comparisons, but not perfect. While Molina “had no bat”, the bat he didn’t have was still better than both of them. He (suspiciously) had a 3-year window where his bat was almost elite. Boone and Sundbeg never had that window.

Also, longevity in the 70s/80s =/= longevity in the 00s/10s. Players in the 70s/80s couldn’t retire early and be financially safe. Players today have no “need” to play more than 10 years or so. Playing longer than that indicates a passion for the act of playing that wasn’t possible yesteryear.