2023 HOF Ballot

[navamind]

Jeter the defensive player is overrated, though I don't think too many people view him as a good defensive player anymore. Jeter's bat and base running might be a tad underrated though.

I'd say he's a top 10 shortstop, but probably in the 8-10 range.

 

[chappee11]

...except he wasn't.

Smith: .262/.337/.328, 87 OPS+
Vizquel: .272/.336/.352, 82 OPS+

Keep in mind that while their careers overlapped, they played in pretty different eras for shortstops. SS was seen as a more defensive position during Ozzie's career than it was Omar's. Ozzie had more seasons with an OPS+ of 100 or higher and he did finish in the top 10 in OBP twice (Omar never finished in the top 10 in his league). Ozzie also stole 176 more bases while getting caught 19 fewer times.


WAR isn't even remotely close. 76.9 for Ozzie to 45.6 for Vizquel, and that's with Omar having 1235 more plate appearances.

Omar Vizquel belongs in the Harold Baines wing of the HOF.

The PED stuff has removed most of the best players from consideration. Now we are stuck arguing about which borderline guys deserve it. It’s sad. Scott Rolen finished in the top 10 in MVP voting exactly once(4th place) in his entire career. I’m not impressed.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don't hate him. He was great for the game and a sure fire HOFer. But if Bum was overrated so was Jeter.

except no... not the same... Jeter is really not over-rated... Bum absolutely was...

 

[chappee11]

the old jeter is over-rated claim.... actually did the opposite.. the hate for jeter made him really under-rated... which is weird to say...

never really understood the hate for him...

Say what you want about Jeter but he finished with almost 3500 hits. Hard to “overrate” that. If any facet of his game was overrated, it would probably be his defense. He won several gold gloves on name recognition only.

 

[Cedrique]

I agree. I am piggy backing off of an opinion I stole from Jason Stark. He’s the guy that pulls out Larkin’s name for a comparison to Rollins. I think I may have stated his opinion wrong. I stated better but I’m thinking now that Stark was saying based on a comparison to a guy already in at his position that Rollins stacks up pretty well.

Another argument made by Stark is that Rollins is the only guy from that core group of Phillies from 07-11 who has a legit chance to get in. He said he doesn’t see that group getting overlooked with no representation in the Hall.

I agree with you that Larkin gets the edge. After looking more closely, they are comparable in gold gloves with Rollins 4 and Larkin’s 3. However, Larkin’s 9 Silver Sluggers at his position vs Rollins 1 shows Larkin to be an elite producer at the plate relative to Rollins.

Are the voters really that coordinated that they can make sure a player from the 2007-2011 Phillies gets in the hall of fame? Or is that just Jayson Stark lobbying? Also, what about Utley? Top 8 WAR3, WAR5, WAR7, 16th WAR overall for 2b, rule named after him, World Fucking Champion, featured in It's Always Sunny......

 

[Cedrique]

the old jeter is over-rated claim.... actually did the opposite.. the hate for jeter made him really under-rated... which is weird to say...

never really understood the hate for him...

Yeah it's a weird phenomena. There's a tipping point where if so many people call him overrated that some of the more casual fans start to say "he sucks", making him underrated.

 

[chappee11]

Years ago, there was an uproar on the message boards when Jim Rice got into the HOF. Everyone considered him to be unworthy and the weakest member of the HOF. Now, NONE of the guys that get in are as good as Rice.

 

[msgkings322]

except no... not the same... Jeter is really not over-rated... Bum absolutely was...

 

[navamind]

Years ago, there was an uproar on the message boards when Jim Rice got into the HOF. Everyone considered him to be unworthy and the weakest member of the HOF. Now, NONE of the guys that get in are as good as Rice.

While I do think Rice was a dubious selection, I wouldn't say he's remotely close to being the worst HOF selection of all-time. Hell, just in the last 2 decades, I'd say Haines/Morris/Lee Smith/Sutter were worse.

 

[msgkings322]

Yeah it's a weird phenomena. There's a tipping point where if so many people call him overrated that some of the more casual fans start to say "he sucks", making him underrated.

He doesn't suck. He was just considered God's gift and the greatest player of his era by New Yorkers and the NY media. Bumgarner is not underrated but he's not overrated either. He's correctly considered one of the best postseason pitchers (top 3?) but not a Hall of Famer. That's not overrated.

 

[calsnowskier]

Years ago, there was an uproar on the message boards when Jim Rice got into the HOF. Everyone considered him to be unworthy and the weakest member of the HOF. Now, NONE of the guys that get in are as good as Rice.

I don’t know. I have always considered J. Rice the GOAT.

 

[Pure Steel]

Years ago, there was an uproar on the message boards when Jim Rice got into the HOF. Everyone considered him to be unworthy and the weakest member of the HOF. Now, NONE of the guys that get in are as good as Rice.

Put Dwight Evans in and take Rice out and I'm good......

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Are the voters really that coordinated that they can make sure a player from the 2007-2011 Phillies gets in the hall of fame? Or is that just Jayson Stark lobbying? Also, what about Utley? Top 8 WAR3, WAR5, WAR7, 16th WAR overall for 2b, rule named after him, World Fucking Champion, featured in It's Always Sunny......

utley is an interesting one... but he is not a first ballot caliber player... which i think is dumb as well, that players can be ranked by whether they are first year ballot good or not... if you are not top 10 of any HOF class, you should not make the HOF...

 

[Cedrique]

He doesn't suck. He was just considered God's gift and the greatest player of his era by New Yorkers and the NY media. Bumgarner is not underrated but he's not overrated either. He's correctly considered one of the best postseason pitchers (top 3?) but not a Hall of Famer. That's not overrated.

I wasn't even thinking about Bumgarner. I'm just saying once "everyone" says a player is overrated, he's not really overrated any more. But you're probably right, most players are overrated in the city they play in so Jeter is probably overrated in New York, which happens to be the biggest market in the US so the rest of the country notices that.

 

[nynasty]

Put Dwight Evans in and take Rice out and I'm good......

Subtract Hal Baines and add Keith Hernandez

 

[chappee11]

Madison Bumgarner on line 2 sir

Catchers too, barely any in the Hall, one reason Posey is a lock IMO

I hate the positional scarcity argument for the HOF. For a guy like Posey, he wouldn’t even get 10% of the vote if he were an outfielder with those numbers. He basically had 5-6 years where he was at an elite level. Compare him with a guy like Albert Belle(who had much better numbers) and a similar period of great success. Belle fell off the ballot almost immediately. Then again, Belle was mean, and the writers hate that, too. Such a farce.

 

[navamind]

I hate the positional scarcity argument for the HOF. For a guy like Posey, he wouldn’t even get 10% of the vote if he were an outfielder with those numbers. He basically had 5-6 years where he was at an elite level. Compare him with a guy like Albert Belle(who had much better numbers) and a similar period of great success. Belle fell off the ballot almost immediately. Then again, Belle was mean, and the writers hate that, too. Such a farce.

Fact of the matter is, he put up those numbers as a catcher and few catchers ever hit as well as he has. That is what makes them tremendously valuable.

By that logic, we shouldn't be inducting any middle infielders because they don't hit as well as corner outfielders or 1st basemen.

 

[msgkings322]

I wasn't even thinking about Bumgarner. I'm just saying once "everyone" says a player is overrated, he's not really overrated any more. But you're probably right, most players are overrated in the city they play in so Jeter is probably overrated in New York, which happens to be the biggest market in the US so the rest of the country notices that.

I brought up Jeter to the Yankee fan who said Bumgarner was overrated. That's why I'm comparing them.

 

[msgkings322]

I hate the positional scarcity argument for the HOF. For a guy like Posey, he wouldn’t even get 10% of the vote if he were an outfielder with those numbers. He basically had 5-6 years where he was at an elite level. Compare him with a guy like Albert Belle(who had much better numbers) and a similar period of great success. Belle fell off the ballot almost immediately. Then again, Belle was mean, and the writers hate that, too. Such a farce.

That's a really dumb take. Positions affect your stats and the Hall should include the best at every position. There's already more OFs and 1Bs in the Hall you don't have to push that even further.

Posey also won MVP, and ROY, and 3 rings as the team leader, he's a lock. The story of baseball needs to include all positions not just OFs.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I hate the positional scarcity argument for the HOF. For a guy like Posey, he wouldn’t even get 10% of the vote if he were an outfielder with those numbers. He basically had 5-6 years where he was at an elite level. Compare him with a guy like Albert Belle(who had much better numbers) and a similar period of great success. Belle fell off the ballot almost immediately. Then again, Belle was mean, and the writers hate that, too. Such a farce.

scarcity at some positions make sense to me... like catcher... But then there are players like Joe Mauer, who moved to first base to extend his career, and his stats now are looked as if he was always a catcher... that is the bigger problem...