2021 NBA regular season thread

[shopson67]

Draymond is an Elite defender, but he's arguably the greatest (statistically anyways) play making PF in the history of the NBA.

Calling him a PF is a bit of a cop-out if you want to talk all-time players. He's considerably smaller than Lebron or Magic. He plays the PF role because of limitations in his game (handle, shooting). At 6'6, most players are wings.

 

[CitySushi]

Well how could I possibly rebut that logic?

Negative OBPM. .7 OWS. A 31% turnover rate despite a usage rate of only 13.

He is, at this point in his career, a terrible shooter.

Real question....What's the difference between him and say Rondo or Mark Jackson offensively?

They both are very similar in terms of OBPM and OWS in their careers.

 

[CitySushi]

Calling him a PF is a bit of a cop-out if you want to talk all-time players. He's considerably smaller than Lebron or Magic. He plays the PF role because of limitations in his game (handle, shooting). At 6'6, most players are wings.

No one is calling Charles Barkley a SG though. Wes Unseld wasn't a SF. Height is irrelevant when it comes to discussion positions.

In terms of position, you are generally classified by which position you can guard.

 

[flyerhawk]

Sure, that's why I included efficiency. That said, putting that exclusively on Dray's shoulders is exaggerating; the only player on the roster with a positive offensive plus/minus above 0.5 is Steph. At least Dray balances his negative offense with strong defensive numbers to have the second best overall plus/minus on the team, unless you count Payton's 40 minutes played.

Well I wasn't putting that exclusively on Dray. But he has the 3rd most minutes played on the team. He's average 6 points a game on a 43/25/78 shooting line.

My point wasn't that Green is a bad player and I don't think it was Wiggy's either. My point was that, at this point, he is an offensive liability. His defense does make up for it otherwise he would be barely a rotation player.

 

[flyerhawk]

Real question....What's the difference between him and say Rondo or Mark Jackson offensively?

They both are very similar in terms of OBPM and OWS in their careers.

I am talking about current Green. Current Rondo isn't a starter. Rondo hasn't been a full time starter in 6 years.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Need to get ESPN +. They have some good shit I wanna read.

 

[CitySushi]

I am talking about current Green. Current Rondo isn't a starter. Rondo hasn't been a full time starter in 6 years.

Well my point was more to say that all three players had liabilities in their games, but were they complete offensive liabilities? I'd say no because they contributed in major ways to the offense, without scoring being a focal point.

Tony Allen, is what I would call an offensive liability. Matisse Thybulle at this point is an offensive liability. A player who averages nearly 9 apg a game can't be considered an offensive liability.

 

[flyerhawk]

Well my point was more to say that all three players had liabilities in their games, but were they complete offensive liabilities? I'd say no because they contributed in major ways to the offense, without scoring being a focal point.

Tony Allen, is what I would call an offensive liability. Matisse Thybulle at this point is an offensive liability. A player who averages nearly 9 apg a game can't be considered an offensive liability.

Green wasn't an offensive liability for most of his career. He fit the offense well and made it possible for their lethal shooters to get open looks.

Draymond Green today is an offensive liability.

FTR, Mattisse Thybulle's per 36 is 7.2 ppg. Green's is 7.7. Green is a better offensive player than Thybulle right now but that is grading on a pretty low curve.

 

[CitySushi]

Green wasn't an offensive liability for most of his career. He fit the offense well and made it possible for their lethal shooters to get open looks.

Draymond Green today is an offensive liability.

FTR, Mattisse Thybulle's per 36 is 7.2 ppg. Green's is 7.7. Green is a better offensive player than Thybulle right now but that is grading on a pretty low curve.

I think it's just a matter of difference in our valuations of offense. Are points the only thing that matters for offense?

 

[WiggyRuss]

I'd say he's already had 5 high level seasons and 1 more this year. Sure points are down, but he's averaging nearly 9 assists a game while being the best defensive player on the roster by a good margin.

I mean just surface value right now in terms of accolades

Dennis Rodman - 14 seasons
2x DPOY
2x AS
2x All NBA
8x All NBA Defense

Draymond - 9 seasons
1x DPOY
3x AS
2x All NBA
5x All NBA Defense

I don't think there even comparable to be honest because they do different things. Rodman was one of the greatest rebounders in NBA history as well as one of the best defenders.

Draymond is an Elite defender, but he's arguably the greatest (statistically anyways) play making PF in the history of the NBA.

Rodman contributed more on defense. Draymond contributes way more offensively.

what do you define as a "high level player"?

I would define it somewhere as a top 50 player in the game- or a real difference maker.

also- Draymond 3 first team, 2 second team. Rodman 8 first team, 1 second team.

Green was a great player one season 2015-2016.

he was a high level guy probably (maybe) in 14-15, 16-17, 17-18.

thats probably about it for him being a real difference maker.

18-19 is when he started to crash offensively and since then his defensive skills have eroded.

 

[flyerhawk]

I think it's just a matter of difference in our valuations of offense. Are points the only thing that matters for offense?

No. But if a player is a complete non-entity as a scorer, it make it much more difficult for them to be effective on the offensive side of the ball. Teams basically ignore Green in the half court. He is no threat to shoot from the perimeter and he has a limited drive to the hoop.

He is a good distributor of the ball but how much do his assist numbers rely on Curry making circus shots over and over again?

 

[CitySushi]

what do you define as a "high level player"?

I would define it somewhere as a top 50 player in the game- or a real difference maker.

also- Draymond 3 first team, 2 second team. Rodman 8 first team, 1 second team.

Green was a great player one season 2015-2016.

he was a high level guy probably (maybe) in 14-15, 16-17, 17-18.

thats probably about it for him being a real difference maker.

18-19 is when he started to crash offensively and since then his defensive skills have eroded.

Yeah, after more thought maybe not high level. I would consider those guys allstars or fringe all-stars. I would say he's above league average for Starters, but I'm not sure if that qualifies for high level.

So 4 years high level. 3 years above league average starter. I'd also argue (based off my eye test) that his defensive skills have not eroded nearly to where you think they might be. Last year he was bad for sure. He mailed it in. This year, I've seen him lock guys up still. He's not the DPOY guy any longer, but he's definitely still All NBA defense worthy level.

Rodman it would be difficult to say whether or not he was high level in each of those seasons. Absolute beast of a rebounder for sure, but not sure if he would qualify as a fringe allstar or not by my own definition.

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't think there even comparable to be honest because they do different things. Rodman was one of the greatest rebounders in NBA history as well as one of the best defenders.

Draymond is an Elite defender, but he's arguably the greatest (statistically anyways) play making PF in the history of the NBA.

Rodman contributed more on defense. Draymond contributes way more offensively.

Yeah, it's kind of an odd comparison.

Rodman was a 2 dimensional player. You were getting rebounds and defense...that's it. That's no small thing, but offensively, unless he was getting an offensive rebound...he wasn't much help because a defense could basically ignore him.

With Dray, you get defense and rebounding (not necessarily Rodman level, but still a high level) and you also get the assists, the ball keeps moving and while he doesn't score like he used to, he also can't be completely ignored.

 

[CitySushi]

No. But if a player is a complete non-entity as a scorer, it make it much more difficult for them to be effective on the offensive side of the ball. Teams basically ignore Green in the half court. He is no threat to shoot from the perimeter and he has a limited drive to the hoop.

He is a good distributor of the ball but how much do his assist numbers rely on Curry making circus shots over and over again?

Oh you're absolutely right his distribution relies heavily on Steph, particularly in the pick and roll. When they run the P&R, Curry always commands that double and after a dump off Draymond can attack 4 on 3. He gets a ton of his assists this way. He's absolutely a beneficiary. But also would Curry be as good without a PF who could get him the ball in the right spots? Draymond add's a ton of value to Steph's game as much as Steph does his.

But he still needs to possess that ability to make the play. Make the right read and the right decision.

In the NBA almost all players are beneficiaries of their teammates in one fashion or the other. So it's difficult to say. This argument has gone around for years on this board if Green would nothing without the Warriors. Probably not nothing, but also not what he was either.

 

[dtgold88]

Dort is back now but it seems only plays every now and then. Bazley the same deal, Muscala been out 2 months. They are giving a bunch of minutes to a lot of guys that likely won’t be around next year. It’s a full on push for Cade Cunningham.

Oh I don't blame them, but don't kid yourself. Other than SGA (and maybe Horford) they are not missing anyone of substance. But that top pick will go a long way.

 

[msgkings322]

Green wasn't an offensive liability for most of his career. He fit the offense well and made it possible for their lethal shooters to get open looks.

Draymond Green today is an offensive liability.

FTR, Mattisse Thybulle's per 36 is 7.2 ppg. Green's is 7.7. Green is a better offensive player than Thybulle right now but that is grading on a pretty low curve.

They are down to one lethal shooter this year.

 

[thunderc]

Oh I don't blame them, but don't kid yourself. Other than SGA (and maybe Horford) they are not missing anyone of substance. But that top pick will go a long way.

They were a borderline playoff team before all this started. George Hill is no longer wirh the team either, truth is they were winning way too much. They have 2 players that will be starters on a playoff team of the future and those are SGA and Dort. Bazley will be a 6th man type. Moses Brown, Maledon and Pokucevsky are all 19 and we will see what we get with them. Perhaps one of them will develop, I think Maledon has a great chance. Horford will never play again for the thunder.

 

[Sportsguy9695]

Need to get ESPN +. They have some good shit I wanna read.

Yea really I hear ya

 

[Pastafazul]

I mean this is true....but the idea you are lumping yourself in with NFL and NBA stars as a minor league baseball player is kooky talk.

how exactly am I lumping myself in?

I don’t think you understand what you just wrote?

did I make it to show, no, but I did everything they did in my respective sport.

Also, I played in the instruction league which consisted of major league players and minors, I faced pitchers like Mike Henneman , John Smily , and others..

i came up a little short that is all

 

[Pastafazul]

More looney tunes. Now if you want to tell me baseball players are wimps for taking more days off I'd go along with that.

Playing baseball is a day off. Nearly half the game you are sitting. Most of the other half you are standing and watching the pitcher/catcher.

Dr Jeckyl meet mr Hyde ...