2021 NBA Offseason

[DJ Fieri]

A big part of it is all the misinformation campaigns promoting low death rates and comparing Covid to the flu.

People legitimately don’t think Covid is something they need protection from.

Idiots.

 

[Wamu]

See, this is part of the problem.

The crazy conspiracy theorists were always going to be there. They always are and always have been. Those people have always been pretty much ignored by everyone else.

But now, and I'm not saying you're doing this, many who are trying to push the vaccine just want to lump people with legit questions and concerns in with conspiracy theorists.

I haven't made anything up. What I mentioned are things some anti-vaxxers truly believe. And those same people that believe all the crazy stuff out there are also the same people now trying to use horse dewormer to beat the virus.

 

[trojanfan12]

I haven't made anything up. What I mentioned are things some anti-vaxxers truly believe. And those same people that believe all the crazy stuff out there are also the same people now trying to use horse dewormer to beat the virus.

Never said you did make anything up. My point is that those that believe the conspiracy theories were always going to be there. They always are and most people just ignore them or laugh at them.

But now, people with legit questions and concerns are being lumped in with the (again, not saying you're doing this) conspiracy people rather than having reasonable discussions/debates about those questions/concerns.

 

[msgkings322]

Never said you did make anything up. My point is that those that believe the conspiracy theories were always going to be there. They always are and most people just ignore them or laugh at them.

But now, people with legit questions and concerns are being lumped in with the (again, not saying you're doing this) conspiracy people rather than having reasonable discussions/debates about those questions/concerns.

But what are the reasonable objections to taking the vaccine? Side effects aren't that. If you have some kind of condition and your doctor says don't, then obviously don't. That's about 5% of the anti-vaxxers though. What is holding back the other 95%?

 

[trojanfan12]

But what are the reasonable objections to taking the vaccine? Side effects aren't that. If you have some kind of condition and your doctor says don't, then obviously don't. That's about 5% of the anti-vaxxers though. What is holding back the other 95%?

There are plenty of them. To start with, it's not nearly as effective as we were told it would be. My guess on that would be a combination of the virus mutating (which they all tend to do) and the vaccines not being put under near the level and amount of testing that all drugs normally go through for approval. It typically takes years to get drugs approved because it can take years for the effectiveness to be known and the types and severity of side effects to be known.

Additionally, my point is not about whether or not someone's objection is reasonable or not and people trying to tell others which objections are reasonable and which are not, is a big part of the problem.

Someone may have an objection that I don't agree with...but that doesn't make their objection unreasonable. It just means they have an objection that I don't.

It doesn't matter what it is, there will always be a certain percentage of people who want nothing to do with it and their reasons will vary from person to person. Especially when it's coming from the government. There will also be a percentage who will "drag their feet" until all of their questions are answered or until they feel comfortable that enough people have done it to convince them it's okay....and of course, there is the percentage that will want to be first in line.

It's human nature. Some are naturally optimists and some pessimists. All will react accordingly based on how optimistic or pessimistic they are.

The government could be handing out $1 million dollars to every American and the only thing that would change about the above would be the percentage of people in each category. But there would still be people in each category.

Honestly, if everyone would just stfu and move on, a lot of the pessimists would eventually stop feeling like something is being forced on them and would get vaccinated. But as long as they feel like they have something to fight back against, they won't.

 

[bksballer89]

 

[msgkings322]

Honestly, if everyone would just stfu and move on, a lot of the pessimists would eventually stop feeling like something is being forced on them and would get vaccinated. But as long as they feel like they have something to fight back against, they won't.

This is the childishness I referred to. Anyone making a decision on whether to take a potentially life-saving vaccine with almost no side effects for almost everyone because they don't wanna eat their vegetables and like to 'fight' is an immature child. That's just a fact.

I don't browbeat anyone to take it or not take it, but I will label them accurately. And I am honestly trying to figure out if there's any other reasons besides this childishness.

 

[trojanfan12]

This is the childishness I referred to. Anyone making a decision on whether to take a potentially life-saving vaccine with almost no side effects for almost everyone because they don't wanna eat their vegetables and like to 'fight' is an immature child. That's just a fact.

No, that is your opinion and frankly, that attitude is the biggest problem in all of this.

I don't browbeat anyone to take it or not take it, but I will label them accurately. And I am honestly trying to figure out if there's any other reasons besides this childishness.

Yes you do. I've seen you do it. Additionally, "labeling someone correctly" is also a huge part of the problem. Who are you to label them?

If you want to figure out if there's any other reasons besides "this childishness"...perhaps you should drop your own childishness and actually listen to what peoples concerns are rather than try to figure out creative ways to troll them and/or call them "childish".

If this were something that you didn't trust, had questions about or didn't agree with and people came at you the way you and others have come at them...I expect that your reaction wouldn't be much different than theirs.

 

[The Q]

No, that is your opinion and frankly, that attitude is the biggest problem in all of this.



Yes you do. I've seen you do it. Additionally, "labeling someone correctly" is also a huge part of the problem. Who are you to label them?

If you want to figure out if there's any other reasons besides "this childishness"...perhaps you should drop your own childishness and actually listen to what peoples concerns are rather than try to figure out creative ways to troll them and/or call them "childish".

If this were something that you didn't trust, had questions about or didn't agree with and people came at you the way you and others have come at them...I expect that your reaction wouldn't be much different than theirs.

It’s also hypocritical when he’s ok with the shameless premeditated murder of babies while claiming it under bodily autonomy of someone whose body isn’t the one In question.

Yet this is an actual my body my choice issue and he takes this stance….

 

[Gman]

I agree overall with @trojanfan12...

If the goal is to get as many adults vaccinated as possible, and we're pondering how to get the last 10-30% of the population to get the jab... positive reinforcement is the better path than coercion and shaming.

It's human nature. If you try to squeeze folks, that will just embitter them and cause their resistance to harden.

Finally, I don't think 'getting to 100% vaccination rate' is a reasonable goal. And if we make that the goal, we're destined for bitterness and resentment... which is no help to anything.

 

[msgkings322]

No, that is your opinion and frankly, that attitude is the biggest problem in all of this.



Yes you do. I've seen you do it. Additionally, "labeling someone correctly" is also a huge part of the problem. Who are you to label them?

If you want to figure out if there's any other reasons besides "this childishness"...perhaps you should drop your own childishness and actually listen to what peoples concerns are rather than try to figure out creative ways to troll them and/or call them "childish".

If this were something that you didn't trust, had questions about or didn't agree with and people came at you the way you and others have come at them...I expect that your reaction wouldn't be much different than theirs.

I am listening. What are their concerns?

 

[msgkings322]

It’s also hypocritical when he’s ok with the shameless premeditated murder of babies while claiming it under bodily autonomy of someone whose body isn’t the one In question.

Yet this is an actual my body my choice issue and he takes this stance….

Grow up. No babies are harmed in first trimester abortions.

 

[The Q]

Grow up. No babies are harmed in first trimester abortions.

Ah. Thanks for proving me right.

And yes, people who are murdered are definitely harmed

And it’s definitely not a body autonomy issue as women done have 4 arms or legs

 

[msgkings322]

Ah. Thanks for proving me right.

And yes, people who are murdered are definitely harmed

And it’s definitely not a body autonomy issue as women done have 4 arms or legs

It's not a person then. But this is not the forum for the endlessly boring abortion/personhood debate.

 

[trojanfan12]

I am listening. What are their concerns?

Keep in mind, I'm vaccinated. Some of these are concerns I had myself and in some cases, still have. Some are concerns that I have heard, but either haven't ever had, or don't have anymore. I will own mine. Some directly involve the vaccine. Some are things around the vaccine that can cause doubt about the vaccine itself and/or the motives of those in government.

1. It hasn't undergone the same level and amount of testing that drugs typically have to undergo for approval. Getting FDA approval typically takes years because it typically takes years to see how well the drug works, what the side effects are and how severe they are. We've already learned that these vaccines are not as effective as we were initially told...which is why 1 shots became 2, 2 shots became "now you need a booster" and "now you need a booster" looks like it may become "now you need a booster annually". This is actually a concern I share.

2. It has the look of something that was first fast tracked, then delayed, then fast tracked again, strictly to score political points. This causes doubt.

3. We're told how important and "potentially life saving" this vaccine is and how important it is to "mask up" and social distance. Then we see the very people responsible for it violating their own mandates. When that happens, it's either ignored by the media...or some lame excuse is presented to cover for those involved and then it's ignored. How important can it really be if the very people telling it's important, aren't following their own directives? I share this concern.

4. If you're a white person who doesn't want the vaccine because you don't trust the government...you are a dangerous, paranoid, anti-vaxxer. If you're a minority and don't want the vaccine because you don't trust the government...well you have reason to not trust the government. I think it's bullshit, but it's not something I'm concerned about.

5. Re-visiting the they aren't as effective as we were told issue...people who are vaccinated can still catch and pass Covid. The only real benefit seems to be that if you are vaccinated and do get it, your symptoms are likely to be less severe and you are less likely to die. So, you really aren't vaccinated. You don't really here that about other vaccines. I can't think of a time where I've heard, for example, "Yeah, ol' Bob caught polio. But fortunately he was vaccinated. So he only caught a mild case and didn't die". This current vaccine has been widely available for less than a year and we're already seeing varying drops effectiveness depending on which vaccine someone got. I wonder about this myself.

6. The intentional suppression of other treatment options simply because of who suggested it or because it didn't fit the narrative. I'd like to see an investigation of some sort into this.

7. There's still a lot of confusion around rules regarding vaccination...as we were discussing re: the NBA and got us to this point in the thread.

Those are off the top of my head. I'm likely forgetting at least a couple.

Personally, when it came to deciding to get vaccinated. I looked at my personal situation...I have been blessed with a very strong immune system. Vaccinated or not, I'd be unlikely to catch it and if I did, there's be about a 95% chance that I would suffer either no symptoms or very mild ones. But, I have 4 people in my life who could end up extremely sick or worse if they were to catch it. That could potentially make me dangerous to them because I could easily have it and not know it.

I looked up all of the info I could find both pro and con. After reading through it. I decided that at worst, it really wouldn't do much to prevent passing it to them if I were to get it and not know it and at best, it would prevent me from passing it to them. I also didn't believe, and still don't, that there would be any significant adverse long term effects if I did get vaccinated.

And again, whether you agree or don't agree with any or all of them, doesn't make them any more or less legitimate. It seems means you either disagree or you don't.

Well, that turned into an old school Wiggy post. Probably should have gone all caps for part of it. lol

 

[msgkings322]

Keep in mind, I'm vaccinated. Some of these are concerns I had myself and in some cases, still have. Some are concerns that I have heard, but either haven't ever had, or don't have anymore. I will own mine. Some directly involve the vaccine. Some are things around the vaccine that can cause doubt about the vaccine itself and/or the motives of those in government.

1. It hasn't undergone the same level and amount of testing that drugs typically have to undergo for approval. Getting FDA approval typically takes years because it typically takes years to see how well the drug works, what the side effects are and how severe they are. We've already learned that these vaccines are not as effective as we were initially told...which is why 1 shots became 2, 2 shots became "now you need a booster" and "now you need a booster" looks like it may become "now you need a booster annually". This is actually a concern I share.

2. It has the look of something that was first fast tracked, then delayed, then fast tracked again, strictly to score political points. This causes doubt.

3. We're told how important and "potentially life saving" this vaccine is and how important it is to "mask up" and social distance. Then we see the very people responsible for it violating their own mandates. When that happens, it's either ignored by the media...or some lame excuse is presented to cover for those involved and then it's ignored. How important can it really be if the very people telling it's important, aren't following their own directives? I share this concern.

4. If you're a white person who doesn't want the vaccine because you don't trust the government...you are a dangerous, paranoid, anti-vaxxer. If you're a minority and don't want the vaccine because you don't trust the government...well you have reason to not trust the government. I think it's bullshit, but it's not something I'm concerned about.

5. Re-visiting the they aren't as effective as we were told issue...people who are vaccinated can still catch and pass Covid. The only real benefit seems to be that if you are vaccinated and do get it, your symptoms are likely to be less severe and you are less likely to die. So, you really aren't vaccinated. You don't really here that about other vaccines. I can't think of a time where I've heard, for example, "Yeah, ol' Bob caught polio. But fortunately he was vaccinated. So he only caught a mild case and didn't die". This current vaccine has been widely available for less than a year and we're already seeing varying drops effectiveness depending on which vaccine someone got. I wonder about this myself.

6. The intentional suppression of other treatment options simply because of who suggested it or because it didn't fit the narrative. I'd like to see an investigation of some sort into this.

7. There's still a lot of confusion around rules regarding vaccination...as we were discussing re: the NBA and got us to this point in the thread.

Those are off the top of my head. I'm likely forgetting at least a couple.

Personally, when it came to deciding to get vaccinated. I looked at my personal situation...I have been blessed with a very strong immune system. Vaccinated or not, I'd be unlikely to catch it and if I did, there's be about a 95% chance that I would suffer either no symptoms or very mild ones. But, I have 4 people in my life who could end up extremely sick or worse if they were to catch it. That could potentially make me dangerous to them because I could easily have it and not know it.

I looked up all of the info I could find both pro and con. After reading through it. I decided that at worst, it really wouldn't do much to prevent passing it to them if I were to get it and not know it and at best, it would prevent me from passing it to them. I also didn't believe, and still don't, that there would be any significant adverse long term effects if I did get vaccinated.

And again, whether you agree or don't agree with any or all of them, doesn't make them any more or less legitimate. It seems means you either disagree or you don't.

Well, that turned into an old school Wiggy post. Probably should have gone all caps for part of it. lol

None of these objections address the following simple facts (not opinions):

- Vaccinated people survive Covid more than unvaxxed people, by orders of magnitude. Not only do they survive far more, they don't feel nearly as sick and avoid hospitalization at similar orders of magnitude more than the unvaxxed
- The vaccine has been administered literally billions of times worldwide and has almost no side effects and those that do happen are no big deal. They were developed by literally the best virologists our species has, and they work spectacularly and are safe.


That's it. Confusion about rules, or masks, or the changing messaging as things develop, or boosters....none of those things change my two facts above. So I hear these objections and they don't add up. They don't make logical sense.

Again, even after all of your comments above:

- Vaccinated people are much better protected when they contract Covid than unvaxxed
- The vaccines are safe

That's why I keep asking, because I have yet to hear an answer that counters those two facts.

We don't have to keep going, I know your position and you know mine. I don't browbeat the unvaxxed, but I don't understand them and they are not using their heads. They are making bad choices, which they have every right to, and then they get to suffer the consequences of their bad choices.

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't browbeat the unvaxxed,

Again, not true.

 

[trojanfan12]

Again, even after all of your comments above:

- Vaccinated people are much better protected when they contract Covid than unvaxxed
- The vaccines are safe

That's why I keep asking, because I have yet to hear an answer that counters those two facts.

What you don't understand is that what you think doesn't make their concerns any less legit. Also, if you think it all boils down to not being able to answer those 2 things, it shows that you haven't listened. Additionally, with what we are seeing "much better protected" is not actually a fact at all. Many vaccinated people still catch and pass it.

The very fact that you had to type the statement "much better protected when they catch it" should be a clue...what other vaccine that actually works do we say that about? No one says..."Vaccinated people are better protected when they contract polio" about the polio vaccine. Why? Because it actually works.

At this point, with having to get 2 shots and likely having to get boosters annually...the Covid ''vaccine'' is more like the flu shot than an actual vaccine.

 

[Gman]

Again, not true.

Yeah, I gotta agree with TF12 again...

... anyone who frequents the politics forum knows you're one of the more vocal "rage-against-the anti-vaxxers" posters, @msgkings322.

 

[tlance]

What you don't understand is that what you think doesn't make their concerns any less legit. Also, if you think it all boils down to not being able to answer those 2 things, it shows that you haven't listened. Additionally, with what we are seeing "much better protected" is not actually a fact at all. Many vaccinated people still catch and pass it.

The very fact that you had to type the statement "much better protected when they catch it" should be a clue...what other vaccine that actually works do we say that about? No one says..."Vaccinated people are better protected when they contract polio" about the polio vaccine. Why? Because it actually works.

At this point, with having to get 2 shots and likely having to get boosters annually...the Covid ''vaccine'' is more like the flu shot than an actual vaccine.

Yes, you can still catch it and pass it while vaxed.

Avoiding catching it is not the reason to get vaxed.

Although it does make it less likely you will catch it too.