Game Thread: 2021 March Madness Thread

[fredsdeadfriend]

You said the past not fixed cherry picked years

Well, to be fair, the years I mentioned were only cherry picked in that I included 1999 instead of just going with the 21st Century or the last 20 years, much more sensible time periods, also, 99 was significant to me personally because it was the beginning of the Post-Clem Haskins period, as a Gopher fan much of cbb history before that day was a figment of my imagination, FFs that I thought occurred, apparently did not, etc, lol. But there are sometimes good reasons to cherry pick in such a way. In this instance, I started with 1999 because it was both the start of a good period of B1G tourney play, that followed the less than stellar decade of the 90s, and also the PAC had some good tourney's before 1999, which do not detract from my main point, that being that the PAC, as a whole, has been down for the last 2 decades, after doing quite well prior to that(I was a Lute Olson fan, he played college ball with my father here in Minnesota, and a fan overall of the Arizona BB program as a former Gopher was largely responsible for putting Zona BB on the map, also John Wooden was supposed to coach the Gophers had a snow storm not steered him to UCLA, lol).

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

According to sports.-reference.com Oregon made it to the regional semifinal in 2019. Beat Wisconsin, UC Irvine & lost to Virginia.

So those wins would account for 2 of the 4 I gave them credit for?

 

[Wamu]

So those wins would account for 2 of the 4 I gave them credit for?

I'm just going by what you said in comment # 317. Which by the way was incorrect.

It's simple, some PAC fan made the statement that the Media should have been staying up late to watch "real" basketball, with the implication being that basketball outside of the PAC isn't "real" basketball, and IF that is the case THIS season, that somehow the media should have known this.

I simply responded by reminding that poster as to WHY the media and most of the country east of the Rocky Mountains wasn't watching, much less respecting, PAC bb.

ZERO tourney wins as recently as 2018.


ZERO!!!!!!!!!


In the worst 2 post seasons for the B1G since 1999, they still won 3 games and went 12-5 the year inbetween. PAC went an ugly 4-7 in just 2016, followed by 0-3 in 2018 and 4-3 in 2019. There was no post season in 2020, so no way for PAC teams to show any evidence of improvement from the most recent past. As for this year, OOC play was limited, and PAC teams would have been more highly rated/seeded if they had won a bunch of big games in the OOC part of the season.

PACbb

ZERO tourney wins as recently as 2018

And what year(s) again did Minnesota win a basketball national title, didn't you say it was somewhere between 1903 & 1918?

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

I'm just going by what you said in comment # 317. Which by the way was incorrect.




PACbb

ZERO tourney wins as recently as 2018

And what year(s) again did Minnesota win a basketball national title, didn't you say it was somewhere between 1903 & 1918?

I said the PAC got zero wins in the tourney in 2018, and your attempt to refute this was by bringing up wins in 2019?

2018 is not 2019. And what makes the PAC's 3 2018 tourney losses even more embarrassing were 2 of them came in the playin games. So technically only ONE Pac team made it to the Round of 64 in 2018, and that team, lost. Hence, 0-3.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

And what year(s) again did Minnesota win a basketball national title, didn't you say it was somewhere between 1903 & 1918?

That would be 1902, 1903 and 1919, which I might add is a more recent Title than any cbb titles Wash St fans might claim, lol.

 

[Wamu]

That would be 1902, 1903 and 1919, which I might add is a more recent Title than any cbb titles Wash St fans might claim, lol.

You really bragging about titles from more than 100 years ago?




Thanks for the laugh. Does that mean I can brag that the Akron Professionals won the very first NFL championship in 1920?

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

You really bragging about titles from more than 100 years ago?

View attachment 267575


Thanks for the laugh. Does that mean I can brag that the Akron Professionals won the very first NFL championship in 1920?

Not bragging. Guy asked a question, I gave him an answer. And better being cbb's first Dynasty than being an almost never anything in anything like, say, a Wash St fan should have to claim, lol.

And Minnesota's done more than nothing during my lifetime. Part of why they can also claim 4 Naismith Hall of Famers and having been one of the Top Ten producers of NBA talent for most of it's history.

 

[Wamu]

Not bragging. Guy asked a question, I gave him an answer. And better being cbb's first Dynasty than being an almost never anything in anything like, say, a Wash St fan should have to claim, lol.

And Minnesota's done more than nothing during my lifetime. Part of why they can also claim 4 Naismith Hall of Famers and having been one of the Top Ten producers of NBA talent for most of it's history.

Interesting. Other than you I have never heard anyone say Minnesota is CBB's first true dynasty. Can you post anything to back that up?

So I looked up the greatest college dynasties of all time. I can't find anything that lists Minnesota basketball. An article from BR- 20 legitimate collegiate sports dynasties. No mention of Gophers hoops. But Minnesota football ('34-'41) made honorable mention.

cbs.sport.-com: the gretaest college basketball programs ever: ranking the top teams of all time. Minnesota didn't even make the top 25.


"having been one of the top ten producers of NBA talent most of it's history" <----- your words

SI-.com: which schools have produced the most NBA players all-time? (6/20/19)

1. Kentucky- 107
2. UCLA- 97
3. N.Carolina- 90
4. dook- 83
5. Kansas- 72
6. Indiana- 66
7. Louisville- 58
8. Arizona & N.D.- 56 (tie)
10- St. John's- 52

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

"having been one of the top ten producers of NBA talent most of it's history" <----- your words

SI-.com: which schools have produced the most NBA players all-time? (6/20/19)

1. Kentucky- 107
2. UCLA- 97
3. N.Carolina- 90
4. dook- 83
5. Kansas- 72
6. Indiana- 66
7. Louisville- 58
8. Arizona & N.D.- 56 (tie)
10- St. John's- 52

If you RE-read "my words", you will notice that I said "most of it's history". I was referring to, from the start of Pro BB basically, to somewhere in the late 90s, maybe the early 2000s? Maybe a little later than that? After the Clem Haskins scandal broke in 1999, it was not much longer after that Minnesota's production of NBA players slowed down considerably. Also, I've noticed not all sources seem to agree. Not saying SI.com is unreliable, but where did they get their information? #1 through #7 are no brainers and I wouldn't even waste my time confirming, but I'll look up the stats for Zona, ND and St Johns and compare them to UMn. If only to satisfy my own curiousity, I'd like to know how long ago it was UMn fell out of the Top 10.

 

[trojanfan12]

If you RE-read "my words", you will notice that I said "most of it's history". I was referring to, from the start of Pro BB basically, to somewhere in the late 90s, maybe the early 2000s? Maybe a little later than that? After the Clem Haskins scandal broke in 1999, it was not much longer after that Minnesota's production of NBA players slowed down considerably. Also, I've noticed not all sources seem to agree. Not saying SI.com is unreliable, but where did they get their information? #1 through #7 are no brainers and I wouldn't even waste my time confirming, but I'll look up the stats for Zona, ND and St Johns and compare them to UMn. If only to satisfy my own curiousity, I'd like to know how long ago it was UMn fell out of the Top 10.

 

[Wamu]

If you RE-read "my words", you will notice that I said "most of it's history". I was referring to, from the start of Pro BB basically, to somewhere in the late 90s, maybe the early 2000s? Maybe a little later than that? After the Clem Haskins scandal broke in 1999, it was not much longer after that Minnesota's production of NBA players slowed down considerably. Also, I've noticed not all sources seem to agree. Not saying SI.com is unreliable, but where did they get their information? #1 through #7 are no brainers and I wouldn't even waste my time confirming, but I'll look up the stats for Zona, ND and St Johns and compare them to UMn. If only to satisfy my own curiousity, I'd like to know how long ago it was UMn fell out of the Top 10.

 

[Lions=TeHsUcKs]

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Interesting. Other than you I have never heard anyone say Minnesota is CBB's first true dynasty. Can you post anything to back that up?

So I looked up the greatest college dynasties of all time. I can't find anything that lists Minnesota basketball. An article from BR- 20 legitimate collegiate sports dynasties. No mention of Gophers hoops. But Minnesota football ('34-'41) made honorable mention.

cbs.sport.-com: the gretaest college basketball programs ever: ranking the top teams of all time. Minnesota didn't even make the top 25.

Well, maybe using the word "Dynasty" was possibly a little misleading? What led me to use that word? Well, I own a book about the history of Gopher BB, and the way the founding and first decade of Gopher BB was described by the author could give anyone reading it the impression if anyone cbb team could claim the title of "First Dynasty", it would be Minnesota.

I've read UMn won the first "official" basketball game played between two intercollegiate teams. They were one of the very first schools to hire a full time cbb coach. I read that guy actually learned the game of basketball from James Naismith himself. UMn's record from the 1899-1900 season through the 1903-1904 season was 59-6, including a 15-0 season in 1902 and a 13-0 season in 1903. Yale was awarded the first Title by the Helms AF in 1901, and it was assumed back then that all of the best college sports teams came from the east, but like in football, when western teams finally played and beat eastern teams, it started to open up the eyes of the nations sports experts that great teams could come from out west, and at that time, Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, Chicago, etc., were considered western teams. Yale made the mistake in 1902 of playing the Gophers and they got pummeled, 32-23. So Yale chose not to play UMn in 1903, UMn went undefeated, yet that good ole Eastern Bias still led to Yale being awarded a retro-active Title by the Helms Athletic Foundation, but the Poretta-Primo Poll opted to named Minnesota the Champions that year.

So you decide, national champs first 3 seasons, that Helms AF awards them

--------Helms----------PrimoPoll
1901 - Yale U -----------Bucknell, Yale is listed in multi sources with records of 10-2, 10-6 & 10-4 records. UMn's listed at 11-1.
1902 - U Minn --------- U Minn, UMn goes 15-0, including whooping Yale 32-23.
1903 - Yale U ---------- U Minn, UMn goes 13-0, Yale chooses NOT to play Minnesota, is listed with a 15-1 record.


So UMn goes 39-1 over those 3 seasons, whooping Yale in their only meeting, but somehow Yale, being an Eastern Ivy league team gets credit for 2 titles via the Helms AF, despite losing anywhere from 9 to 15 games over those 3 seasons? At least the Porretta Poll got it right giving UMn 2 titles those 3 seasons and Yale NONE.

So you can go with the experts who probably would consider Yale the first cbb dynasty, but my vote goes to the team who first showed they could win all of their games, more than one season in a row, including playing and whooping up on that supposed best team of the East, Yale.

So, going 49-3 from 1901-1904, including 3 Natl Titles from 2 different sources, and then going 23-4 in 1906 & 1907 winning the very first two B1G Conf titles, imo is enough to consider them the first dynasty of cbb, and then they followed that by going 43-5 from 1917 to 1919, including 2 more B1G Conf titles in 1917 & 1919 and 1919 also being a perfect season and being declared, for the 3rd season, 2nd time by the Helms Foundation, National Champs.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

What are you laughing about? Basketball-reference has USC listed with only 45 NBA players. They have Minnesota listed with 50.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Minnesota CBB has produced FOUR Naismith Hall of Famers.

Minnesota CBB has produced at least 50 NBA players.

Minnesota CBB has produced both a cbb Natl Player of the Year, and an NBA #1 overall draft pick.

Minnesota CBB has produced FIVE 10,000+ point NBA scorers.

Minnesota CBB has produced 12 players with 11 FIRST TEAM All-America team accolades and 4 second team accolades.

 

[Duckboy33]

Yo Minnesota needs to chill. If your titles happened before black players were allowed to play, it didn't really happen.

Not just a Minnesota thing either. Oregon won the 1939 NCAAT but I'm not putting that on my resume.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

"having been one of the top ten producers of NBA talent most of it's history" <----- your words

SI-.com: which schools have produced the most NBA players all-time? (6/20/19)

1. Kentucky- 107
2. UCLA- 97
3. N.Carolina- 90
4. dook- 83
5. Kansas- 72
6. Indiana- 66
7. Louisville- 58
8. Arizona & N.D.- 56 (tie)
10- St. John's- 52

Well, your little list there, dated from June of 2019, would mean Coffey & Oturu would not have been on the list for Minnesota at that time. They are the only 2 players to have been added to the NBA out of Minnesota since that list came out. Basketball-Reference has 50 players listed for Minnesota right now. So at the time of that list, 2019, Minnesota would have been able to claim 48.

there is a 4 player gap between 8th place Zona & ND and 10th place St Johns, so is it that hard to believe that Minnesota, with just 4 fewer players than St Johns at that time, may have been 11th or 12th on the list?

Now go back to 2006. Guess what? Minnesota ALREADY HAD THOSE 48 players in the NBA by 2006.


You don't think if a comparable list had come out anytime from say, 2007 to 2012, having 48 players in the NBA historically wouldn't have gotten a team into the Top Ten All-Time???

You'd have to believe that St John's hasn't added more than 4 players since 2006, or that ND or Arizona haven't added 9 since 2006, or UL hasn't added 11 since 2006?


Is that what you believe?

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Yo Minnesota needs to chill. If your titles happened before black players were allowed to play, it didn't really happen.

Not just a Minnesota thing either. Oregon won the 1939 NCAAT but I'm not putting that on my resume.

But Minnesota DID allow black players to play that far back. We had at least one black player on the football team in 1904 for sure. First one to play in the B1G conf in football. We also had Native American players and I believe we had a Chinese player as well. Only reason we may not have had a black player on the basketball teams at that time was because our best black athlete played hockey in the winter time. Also, not alot of blacks in Minnesota 115 years ago. We also produced the first black professional football player, as well, along with THE first professional football player of any color.

So just because SOME schools weren't allowing blacks to play sports, don't take away from the accomplishments of other schools who DID allow them to play. Any wonder why the B1G Conf dominated college football back in the day while SEC teams did not? Still not sure why so many blacks want now to go and reward those racist schools by playing for them? PAC schools were pretty progressive as well back in the day, so no reason for Oregon not to claim that 1939 title, unless of course, maybe they didn't really deserve the honor? lol

 

[Eco]

Oregon and Arizona have titles.

List of NCAA Division I men's basketball champions - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yeah - sorry about that. I somehow was looking at a list of just teams that had won multiple Nattys.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

"having been one of the top ten producers of NBA talent most of it's history" <----- your words

SI-.com: which schools have produced the most NBA players all-time? (6/20/19)

1. Kentucky- 107
2. UCLA- 97
3. N.Carolina- 90
4. dook- 83
5. Kansas- 72
6. Indiana- 66
7. Louisville- 58
8. Arizona & N.D.- 56 (tie)
10- St. John's- 52

A quick look at Basketball-reference dot com reveals that St. John's DID IN FACT add 4 players to the NBA from 2007 to 2018. So in 2006, both St John's and Minnesota would have been tied at 48. Now I'll go check Zona and ND.