2019-20 Quest for the cup(The Carter Hart era begins)

[awaz]

See and I'm probably the only one who agrees with you that keeping Gudas at that same price would have saved us picks. Gudas isn't a huge upgrade but he is def better than Braun! It's this stupid shit that keeps this team from seriously moving forward.

Gudas was traded for Niskanen and had 0 to do with trading a 2nd or 3rd for Braun.

But don't let facts get in the way of your rant!

 

[lasgop8]

A couple of nice home wins tomorrow and Thursday and all is right in the world.

 

[lasgop8]

Gudas was traded for Niskanen and had 0 to do with trading a 2nd or 3rd for Braun.

But don't let facts get in the way of your rant!

Gudas was traded for Nisky but that trade happened because our GM knew he was bringing in Braun to take the right side of the 2nd pairing. So officially Gudas was traded for Nisky but unofficially he was traded for Braun.

 

[awaz]

A couple of nice home wins tomorrow and Thursday and all is right in the world.

Exactly. They had a bad week. Shit happens. There's absolutely no need to come in here and blast the team for being soft with no depth and a shit franchise. It was 3 games. A week ago we were flying high and congratulating ourselves for starting to get some national attention for how good the Flyers are.

A week in which your two leading scorers go down, one out for the year with a cancer diagnosis that is life threatening, lose two other forwards to injury, and lose to 3 of the hottest teams in hockey on the road and all of a sudden the franchise is a dumpster fire.

They need more from the vets. We've all agreed to that this year. But 3 losses doesn't undo all the progress they've made. Chill out.

 

[awaz]

Gudas was traded for Nisky but that trade happened because our GM knew he was bringing in Braun to take the right side of the 2nd pairing. So officially Gudas was traded for Nisky but unofficially he was traded for Braun.

What?

 

[awaz]

Gudas was traded for Nisky but that trade happened because our GM knew he was bringing in Braun to take the right side of the 2nd pairing. So officially Gudas was traded for Nisky but unofficially he was traded for Braun.

The Flyers wanted a RH veteran that could play top pair minutes. Niskanen fit that bill, the Caps wanted a cheaper d-man that could offset the loss of Niskanen, so Gudas was traded for Niskanen on June 14th.

Then they traded for Braun on June 18th because they felt they had a hole on the right side of the 2nd or 3rd pair, a hole created by trading Gudas on June 14th.

I think you're trying to say the Flyers moved Gudas to make room for Braun. That's not true. They wanted Niskanen, Gudas was the cost, Braun was the acquisition to fill the Gudas hole.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

Lol. My reading skills? Look at this post.

Part 1: This isn't an Avs thing.
Part 2: The Avs can win with injured players and the Flyers can't.
Part 3: It's not an Avs thing.

Come on man.

I used the Av's example cause I was driving and didn't want to look shit up to compare with other teams.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

Gudas was traded for Niskanen and had 0 to do with trading a 2nd or 3rd for Braun.

But don't let facts get in the way of your rant!

Man do you just deal in absolutes? This is all hindsight speculation in a conversation.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

Exactly. They had a bad week. Shit happens. There's absolutely no need to come in here and blast the team for being soft with no depth and a shit franchise. It was 3 games. A week ago we were flying high and congratulating ourselves for starting to get some national attention for how good the Flyers are.

A week in which your two leading scorers go down, one out for the year with a cancer diagnosis that is life threatening, lose two other forwards to injury, and lose to 3 of the hottest teams in hockey on the road and all of a sudden the franchise is a dumpster fire.

They need more from the vets. We've all agreed to that this year. But 3 losses doesn't undo all the progress they've made. Chill out.

Says us every season seems like.

 

[awaz]

Man do you just deal in absolutes? This is all hindsight speculation in a conversation.

I don't mean to, and there's probably other areas where absolutes don't make sense even though I paint them that way.

But this one is absolute. Gudas was traded for Niskanen, 50% of Gudas' salary was retained. The Flyers traded a 2nd and a 3rd for Braun 4 days later. This is black and white. Those were the transactions and the days they occurred. Flyers History - Complete List Of Every Trade

You're getting worked up over nothing if you think the Flyers traded Gudas to make room for Braun. That's just not true. They traded Gudas for Niskanen because that's what they needed to do to get Niskanen.

IMO, they didn't want to move Gudas and that's why they made the deal for Braun to TRY to replace him. In Fletcher's eyes, they were a better team by trading for Niskanen and then figuring out a replacement for Gudas. I agree with you guys that they overpaid for Braun, but IMO, they are a better hockey team with Niskanen and Braun than they would have been with just Gudas.

They probably would be better with Niskanen and Gudas, with no Braun. But that was apparently not feasible.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

I don't mean to, and there's probably other areas where absolutes don't make sense even though I paint them that way.

But this one is absolute. Gudas was traded for Niskanen, 50% of Gudas' salary was retained. The Flyers traded a 2nd and a 3rd for Braun 4 days later. This is black and white. Those were the transactions and the days they occurred. Flyers History - Complete List Of Every Trade

You're getting worked up over nothing if you think the Flyers traded Gudas to make room for Braun. That's just not true. They traded Gudas for Niskanen because that's what they needed to do to get Niskanen.

IMO, they didn't want to move Gudas and that's why they made the deal for Braun to TRY to replace him. In Fletcher's eyes, they were a better team by trading for Niskanen and then figuring out a replacement for Gudas. I agree with you guys that they overpaid for Braun, but IMO, they are a better hockey team with Niskanen and Braun than they would have been with just Gudas.

They probably would be better with Niskanen and Gudas, with no Braun. But that was apparently not feasible.

I know Gudas was traded, it was just speculation on my part.

Also my comment regarding why we don't have players like McKinnon etc wasn't a knock on tanking, it was what keeping us from luring quality players here. Rantenin was a FA this Summer, didn't get much better deal than Hayes over all. Twice the player too. Why don't we get those caliber of FA's here?

 

[purdue81]

I don't mean to, and there's probably other areas where absolutes don't make sense even though I paint them that way.

But this one is absolute. Gudas was traded for Niskanen, 50% of Gudas' salary was retained. The Flyers traded a 2nd and a 3rd for Braun 4 days later. This is black and white. Those were the transactions and the days they occurred. Flyers History - Complete List Of Every Trade

You're getting worked up over nothing if you think the Flyers traded Gudas to make room for Braun. That's just not true. They traded Gudas for Niskanen because that's what they needed to do to get Niskanen.

IMO, they didn't want to move Gudas and that's why they made the deal for Braun to TRY to replace him. In Fletcher's eyes, they were a better team by trading for Niskanen and then figuring out a replacement for Gudas. I agree with you guys that they overpaid for Braun, but IMO, they are a better hockey team with Niskanen and Braun than they would have been with just Gudas.

They probably would be better with Niskanen and Gudas, with no Braun. But that was apparently not feasible.

We could have mortgaged the present and the future for Subban !

32 Games Played
2 Goals
3 Assists
-13 Plus/Minus
$9MM Salary

Gritty WAS right, Lindsey could have done better

 

[lasgop8]

The Flyers wanted a RH veteran that could play top pair minutes. Niskanen fit that bill, the Caps wanted a cheaper d-man that could offset the loss of Niskanen, so Gudas was traded for Niskanen on June 14th.

Then they traded for Braun on June 18th because they felt they had a hole on the right side of the 2nd or 3rd pair, a hole created by trading Gudas on June 14th.

I think you're trying to say the Flyers moved Gudas to make room for Braun. That's not true. They wanted Niskanen, Gudas was the cost, Braun was the acquisition to fill the Gudas hole.

That's how you interpret it but i dont. i feel the trade for Braun was already in their minds and as when Gudas was trade they already knew Braun would take that spot and thought he was a better defensive option than Gudas is how i interpret it. Dates dont really apply here IMO they had their minds made up prior to the Gudas /Nisky trade.

 

[lasgop8]

I don't mean to, and there's probably other areas where absolutes don't make sense even though I paint them that way.

But this one is absolute. Gudas was traded for Niskanen, 50% of Gudas' salary was retained. The Flyers traded a 2nd and a 3rd for Braun 4 days later. This is black and white. Those were the transactions and the days they occurred. Flyers History - Complete List Of Every Trade

You're getting worked up over nothing if you think the Flyers traded Gudas to make room for Braun. That's just not true. They traded Gudas for Niskanen because that's what they needed to do to get Niskanen.

IMO, they didn't want to move Gudas and that's why they made the deal for Braun to TRY to replace him. In Fletcher's eyes, they were a better team by trading for Niskanen and then figuring out a replacement for Gudas. I agree with you guys that they overpaid for Braun, but IMO, they are a better hockey team with Niskanen and Braun than they would have been with just Gudas.

They probably would be better with Niskanen and Gudas, with no Braun. But that was apparently not feasible.

Why would it be just Gudas if we never traded him?. We most likely would've signed or traded for someone else to fill the void left AMAC

 

[awaz]

I know Gudas was traded, it was just speculation on my part.

Also my comment regarding why we don't have players like McKinnon etc wasn't a knock on tanking, it was what keeping us from luring quality players here. Rantenin was a FA this Summer, didn't get much better deal than Hayes over all. Twice the player too. Why don't we get those caliber of FA's here?

I don't want this to come across as being overly defending of the organization. 100%, it would be nice if they could land a star free agent. But, it is not as easy as wanting to.

Rantanen was a much better player. But he wasn't available to the Flyers for what Colorado offered. He was a Restricted Free Agent for Colorado. For anyone other than Colorado to sign Rantanen at the deal he signed in Colorado, they would have had to:

1. Make the 9.25M for 6 year offer.
2. Have Rantanen agree to it.
3. Have the Avs decide not to match the contract offer.
4. Given the Avs 1st round picks (2), 2nd round pick (1), and 3rd round pick (1) as compensation.

The same process would have had to play out for any of the big name Restricted Free Agents (Aho, Meier, Keller, Werenski, Marner, McAvoy, Boeser, Point, Conor, DeBrincat were all RFAs)

As for UFAs...

Panarin, as mentioned, wanted to sign in NYR. I think we can pretty comfortably agree that he chose NYR for nothing related to hockey. They're a worse team, with pretty comparable recent history. And to be honest, I'm not that interested in paying him 11.6M on the cap until he's 35 anyway.

Joe Pavelski (7M x 3 years), Sergei Bobrovsky (10M x 7) and Matt Duchene (8M x 7) were the other big FAs this summer.

Signing Bob would've been doing to Hart what the Flyers mistakenly did to Bob all those years ago with Bryz. It was a disaster and they learned from it. So no Bob.

All the rumors leading up to July 1st said Duchene was going to Nashville. Why? It's tough to know. It probably does have something to do with Nashville being a better team than the Flyers and being closer to a cup in his eyes. As usual, hockey has a way of striking you down when you think you're being logical. The Flyers are 6 points ahead of Nashville today.

Joe Pavelski would have been an interesting choice. But he's 35 versus Hayes' 27. Both getting 7M, but you have Hayes in his prime and no risk of him retiring and being 7M in dead space as a result. Hayes has more points than Pavelski so far this year and I think we can all agree that Hayes has been great defensively.

 

[awaz]

I don't want this to come across as being overly defending of the organization. 100%, it would be nice if they could land a star free agent. But, it is not as easy as wanting to.

Rantanen was a much better player. But he wasn't available to the Flyers for what Colorado offered. He was a Restricted Free Agent for Colorado. For anyone other than Colorado to sign Rantanen at the deal he signed in Colorado, they would have had to:

1. Make the 9.25M for 6 year offer.
2. Have Rantanen agree to it.
3. Have the Avs decide not to match the contract offer.
4. Given the Avs 1st round picks (2), 2nd round pick (1), and 3rd round pick (1) as compensation.

The same process would have had to play out for any of the big name Restricted Free Agents (Aho, Meier, Keller, Werenski, Marner, McAvoy, Boeser, Point, Conor, DeBrincat were all RFAs)

As for UFAs...

Panarin, as mentioned, wanted to sign in NYR. I think we can pretty comfortably agree that he chose NYR for nothing related to hockey. They're a worse team, with pretty comparable recent history. And to be honest, I'm not that interested in paying him 11.6M on the cap until he's 35 anyway.

Joe Pavelski (7M x 3 years), Sergei Bobrovsky (10M x 7) and Matt Duchene (8M x 7) were the other big FAs this summer.

Signing Bob would've been doing to Hart what the Flyers mistakenly did to Bob all those years ago with Bryz. It was a disaster and they learned from it. So no Bob.

All the rumors leading up to July 1st said Duchene was going to Nashville. Why? It's tough to know. It probably does have something to do with Nashville being a better team than the Flyers and being closer to a cup in his eyes. As usual, hockey has a way of striking you down when you think you're being logical. The Flyers are 6 points ahead of Nashville today.

Joe Pavelski would have been an interesting choice. But he's 35 versus Hayes' 27. Both getting 7M, but you have Hayes in his prime and no risk of him retiring and being 7M in dead space as a result. Hayes has more points than Pavelski so far this year and I think we can all agree that Hayes has been great defensively.

So, while agree it would be great to lure in big FAs that make a huge impact, there aren't that many available. And in the past two years, the Flyers have signed one of biggest 5 or so names each year (JvR and Hayes). How they've worked out is obviously debatable, but they were unquestionably some of the bigger names on the market and the Flyers signed them.

 

[awaz]

Why would it be just Gudas if we never traded him?. We most likely would've signed or traded for someone else to fill the void left AMAC

Sure they probably would have. But it's difficult to know who that would be and what the return is. It's pretty pessimistic to assume the Flyers would have done better for sure. (Just like it's pretty optimistic to assume it was the absolute best they could do)

Only place to start is with the guys that moved. So which dmen moved this summer?

Cody Ceci, Nikita Zaitsev, Tyson Barrie, Joel Edmundson, Justin Faulk, Colin Miller, PK Subban were the other names that got traded in the offseason.

Niskanen is easily better than Ceci, Zaitsev, and Miller IMO. And probably better than Miller IMO, especially considering they wanted a seasoned vet with lots of playoff experience.

Edmundson/Faulk were traded for each other. Not sure the Flyers could've made an equivalent move for either one of those guys. Gudas is the only guy that really fits the style of that trade. Veteran dman that can play 2nd/3rd pair.

So you're down to Barrie and Subban. Subban was traded for two 2nd round picks and two low level prospects. But he's also making $9M against the cap for 3 more seasons and he has 5 points and a -13. Braun has 5 points and is -14.

Barrie was traded for a 2nd round pick and a bonafide 2C in the NHL (Kadri). The Flyers didn't have that to trade.

 

[lasgop8]

Sure they probably would have. But it's difficult to know who that would be and what the return is. It's pretty pessimistic to assume the Flyers would have done better for sure. (Just like it's pretty optimistic to assume it was the absolute best they could do)

Only place to start is with the guys that moved. So which dmen moved this summer?

Cody Ceci, Nikita Zaitsev, Tyson Barrie, Joel Edmundson, Justin Faulk, Colin Miller, PK Subban were the other names that got traded in the offseason.

Niskanen is easily better than Ceci, Zaitsev, and Miller IMO. And probably better than Miller IMO, especially considering they wanted a seasoned vet with lots of playoff experience.

Edmundson/Faulk were traded for each other. Not sure the Flyers could've made an equivalent move for either one of those guys. Gudas is the only guy that really fits the style of that trade. Veteran dman that can play 2nd/3rd pair.

So you're down to Barrie and Subban. Subban was traded for two 2nd round picks and two low level prospects. But he's also making $9M against the cap for 3 more seasons and he has 5 points and a -13. Braun has 5 points and is -14.

Barrie was traded for a 2nd round pick and a bonafide 2C in the NHL (Kadri). The Flyers didn't have that to trade.

I could debate this but i have a champagne and appetizers party at the office now.

Bottom line Braun sucks and is holding our young defense back and is taking up valuable cap space preventing us from making any moves and cost us two solid picks we could used in a trade.

 

[awaz]

That's how you interpret it but i dont. i feel the trade for Braun was already in their minds and as when Gudas was trade they already knew Braun would take that spot and thought he was a better defensive option than Gudas is how i interpret it. Dates dont really apply here IMO they had their minds made up prior to the Gudas /Nisky trade.

So you think the dman they were really after with all of that was Braun? That seems outrageous to me. And it obviously seems outrageous to you too based on your concrete opinion that Braun sucks; so I don't really understand why you assume that was their course of action if it doesn't make sense to anyone.

Whereas the trade to get Niskanen does make sense to most people and the feeling that they needed to replace Gudas after trading him makes sense too. And the timing of the trades would indicate that they traded Gudas for Niskanen and then 4 days later made a trade to replace Gudas.

But you're opting to believe Braun was the guy they were after all along. Even though the alternative makes more sense, just to make yourself more mad? Seems like an odd line of thought.

 

[lasgop8]

So you think the dman they were really after with all of that was Braun? That seems outrageous to me. And it obviously seems outrageous to you too, so I don't really understand why you assume that was their course of action if it doesn't make sense to anyone.

Whereas the trade to get Niskanen does make sense to most people and the feeling that they needed to replace Gudas after trading him makes sense too.

So you're opting to believe Braun was the guy they were after even though the alternative makes more sense, just to make yourself more mad?

We had grossly overrated Braun and thought he could be a way better option than Gudas would be on our team. So they pulled off the trade with Washington with Braun already in mind to fill Gudas spot. If that doesn't makes sense its because it doesn't our management screwed that one up big time.