2015 Rosterbation

[calsnowskier]

I guess that's OK. You don't want to do a deal just to do a deal. It has to benefit the team.
It has become very clear that for some reason the top players do not want to come to this team and its something the Giants will just have to live with. The choice the Giants are left with is to grossly overpay for FAs or develop players within. I think they'll opt for the latter.

A player signing elsewhere is NOT the same thing as that player not wanting to sign here. There are 30 teams in the MLB, and some teams are going to be a better fit.

Sandoval - wanted to move on, granted.
Lester - has long personal history with Chicago FO, and California taxes were reportedly an issue.
Melky - I suspect the disinterest was from the Giants, not Melky.
Santana - I doubt the Giants were ever in deep negotiations.

Not sure who else you think spurned the Giants. Every team has trouble signing FAs they want because there are 29 other teams who may swoop in at any time to get him. Who reported that the Sox were even interested in Melky before he signed? All rumors were that he was deciding between Seattle and Baltimore.

 

[Mays-Fan]

I guess that's OK. You don't want to do a deal just to do a deal. It has to benefit the team.

Agreed.

It has become very clear that for some reason the top players do not want to come to this team and its something the Giants will just have to live with.

Disagree. While some may not like the confiscatory tax rates of a state which is on the road to self-implosion, I don't think any of them DIS-like the Giants for some reason. We have supposedly made very good offers to the FA's on our radar, only to be overbid. That is the free market.

The choice the Giants are left with is to grossly overpay for FAs or develop players within. I think they'll opt for the latter.

I don't know about "grossly", but to win an auction you have to pay beyond the point of pain. We have to pick the right player to do that. IMHO, this year Headley would be that player, and now that Melky is off the table, maybe Rasmus. But overpaying does not mean "budget-busting" with those two. Scherzer would likely bust our budget. Shields will be expensive. If the baseball gods smile on us, getting Shields/Headley/Rasmus may have truly been the right answer all along.

 

[msgkings322]

Agreed.



Disagree. While some may not like the confiscatory tax rates of a state which is on the road to self-implosion, I don't think any of them DIS-like the Giants for some reason. We have supposedly made very good offers to the FA's on our radar, only to be overbid. That is the free market.


I don't know about "grossly", but to win an auction you have to pay beyond the point of pain. We have to pick the right player to do that. IMHO, this year Headley would be that player, and now that Melky is off the table, maybe Rasmus. But overpaying does not mean "budget-busting" with those two. Scherzer would likely bust our budget. Shields will be expensive. If the baseball gods smile on us, getting Shields/Headley/Rasmus may have truly been the right answer all along.

What does that even mean?

 

[MarcoPolo]

What does that even mean?

The SLAC (Stanford Linear ACcellerator) is going to produce a nano- black hole and the entire state will be sucked into it ...

 

[Montalban]

A player signing elsewhere is NOT the same thing as that player not wanting to sign here. There are 30 teams in the MLB, and some teams are going to be a better fit.

Sandoval - wanted to move on, granted.
Lester - has long personal history with Chicago FO, and California taxes were reportedly an issue.
Melky - I suspect the disinterest was from the Giants, not Melky.
Santana - I doubt the Giants were ever in deep negotiations.

Not sure who else you think spurned the Giants. Every team has trouble signing FAs they want because there are 29 other teams who may swoop in at any time to get him. Who reported that the Sox were even interested in Melky before he signed? All rumors were that he was deciding between Seattle and Baltimore.

Well, every big name free agent they've gone after since Barry Zito and on that one the got hoodwinked.

Doesn't it seem odd to you when players will not come to the most successful team of this century, with the best manager, the best park in baseball, a sell out crowd to play in front of every day and who is willing to pay as much as anyone for these players? C'mon now.

 

[Montalban]

Agreed.



Disagree. While some may not like the confiscatory tax rates of a state which is on the road to self-implosion, I don't think any of them DIS-like the Giants for some reason. We have supposedly made very good offers to the FA's on our radar, only to be overbid. That is the free market.


I don't know about "grossly", but to win an auction you have to pay beyond the point of pain. We have to pick the right player to do that. IMHO, this year Headley would be that player, and now that Melky is off the table, maybe Rasmus. But overpaying does not mean "budget-busting" with those two. Scherzer would likely bust our budget. Shields will be expensive. If the baseball gods smile on us, getting Shields/Headley/Rasmus may have truly been the right answer all along.

And therein lies another problem; that being that profit margin and not winning seems to be the priority for the ownership group.

 

[calsnowskier]

Well, every big name free agent they've gone after since Barry Zito and on that one the got hoodwinked.

Doesn't it seem odd to you when players will not come to the most successful team of this century, with the best manager, the best park in baseball, a sell out crowd to play in front of every day and who is willing to pay as much as anyone for these players? C'mon now.

They signed Rowand.

They signed Tim Hudson.

They signed Aubrey Huff.

They signed Angel Pagan (a non-QO FA).

They signed Miguel Tejada.

They signed Michael Morse.


They learned from the Zito and Rowand signings to NOT go above and beyond. They trust their valuation of players, and they have not gone outside of that. And since the Zito signing, they have put three trophies, two CY awards, one MVP and one ROY on the mantle. I think they are doing just fine.

 

[calsnowskier]

And therein lies another problem; that being that profit margin and not winning seems to be the priority for the ownership group.

Seriously. Do you even read what you write?

THEY ARE THE DEFENDING WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS AND HAVE WON THREE TROPHIES IN FIVE YEARS!!! They have done this with a top 5 payroll the last few years.

Enough already.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Well, now that Melky is in ChiTown, maybe the Sox will trade Dayan Viciedo to us? He's a RF/LF and backup 3B. He's right-handed. He's under team control for 3 more seasons. His AVG is lower than I'd like (~.250) and he doesn't steal bases. He can hit the long ball, and will take a walk, but he's no Bill Mueller in the walks dept. He shouldn't be that expensive in a trade since he isn't a fantastic defender and he strikes out a ton. He could be a stop-gap/backyup in either LF or 3B, and bat 7th. Having that HR threat lower in the order would be something we just don't have in-house at either LF or 3B. He could also get dumped for little or nothing if he doesn't work out. Caveat is that I've never seen him play, and don't really know exactly HOW bad a defender he is.

Of course, I'd want the Giants to spend big on pitching if they went the Viciedo route, who would probably only cost ~3M/yr.

Dayan Viciedo

 

[calsnowskier]

Well, now that Melky is in ChiTown, maybe the Sox will trade Dayan Viciedo to us? He's a RF/LF and backup 3B. He's right-handed. He's under team control for 3 more seasons. His AVG is lower than I'd like (~.250) and he doesn't steal bases. He can hit the long ball, and will take a walk, but he's no Bill Mueller in the walks dept. He shouldn't be that expensive in a trade since he isn't a fantastic defender and he strikes out a ton. He could be a stop-gap/backyup in either LF or 3B, and bat 7th. Having that HR threat lower in the order would be something we just don't have in-house at either LF or 3B. He could also get dumped for little or nothing if he doesn't work out. Caveat is that I've never seen him play, and don't really know exactly HOW bad a defender he is.

Of course, I'd want the Giants to spend big on pitching if they went the Viciedo route, who would probably only cost ~3M/yr.

Dayan Viciedo

.281 OBP? Ouch, babe.

If he were able to supply good D, than no prob. But if he is, as you say, a liability in the field, I see him as Hicks without the D and slightly more power.

Barring any other options, OK, but he is WAY down the list for me.

Edit:

I just noticed that he is not a 3B, but a 1B. I suspect you saw the "3" and your brain translated that to "3B"...

 

[MarcoPolo]

Well, every big name free agent they've gone after since Barry Zito and on that one the got hoodwinked.

Doesn't it seem odd to you when players will not come to the most successful team of this century, with the best manager, the best park in baseball, a sell out crowd to play in front of every day and who is willing to pay as much as anyone for these players? C'mon now.

You mentioned Zito, so that sets the timeframe - 2006 and after. In 2006, 07, 08, and 09 the Giants were NOT 'the most successful team of this century' nor did they have 'the best manager' or 'a sell out crowd to play in front of every day' during that time. I have a photo that I took in 2008, about 3 minutes before first pitch. It's a photo of the RF seating, to about home plate. There were MAYBE 2000 people in the stands. I had the good luck to be gifted lots of 'AAA club' tix in 2008 and went to about 25 games. The place reminded me a lot of the 'stick in the 90s : 10,000 max for any given game (unless the Dodgers, Cards, or Cubbies were in town).

Your premise collapses under it's weight of illogic.

 

[Montalban]

They signed Rowand.

They signed Tim Hudson.

They signed Aubrey Huff.

They signed Angel Pagan (a non-QO FA).

They signed Miguel Tejada.

They signed Michael Morse.


They learned from the Zito and Rowand signings to NOT go above and beyond. They trust their valuation of players, and they have not gone outside of that. And since the Zito signing, they have put three trophies, two CY awards, one MVP and one ROY on the mantle. I think they are doing just fine.

All middle of the road type players and guys past their prime. And I don't count FAs who were already here such as Pagan and Huff because they knew what it was like here. I'm talking about guys who will not come here and give it a chance.
You echo my sentiments that the team is doing just fine, a heck of a lot more than just fine, but that only magnifies the question as to why FAs won't come here

 

[calsnowskier]

You mentioned Zito, so that sets the timeframe - 2006 and after. In 2006, 07, 08, and 09 the Giants were NOT 'the most successful team of this century' nor did they have 'the best manager' or 'a sell out crowd to play in front of every day' during that time. I have a photo that I took in 2008, about 3 minutes before first pitch. It's a photo of the RF seating, to about home plate. There were MAYBE 2000 people in the stands. I had the good luck to be gifted lots of 'AAA club' tix in 2008 and went to about 25 games. The place reminded me a lot of the 'stick in the 90s : 10,000 max for any given game (unless the Dodgers, Cards, or Cubbies were in town).

Your premise collapses under it's weight of illogic.

To be fair, that 2008 team was a special kind of Gawd-Awful.

Brian Bocock started opening day for us. Jose Castillo was our starting 3B.

 

[Montalban]

Seriously. Do you even read what you write?

THEY ARE THE DEFENDING WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS AND HAVE WON THREE TROPHIES IN FIVE YEARS!!! They have done this with a top 5 payroll the last few years.

Enough already.

They still consistently mention the budget and if you cannot see that the reason you give above should be a huge reason why FAs should want to sign here then this discussion is pointless. You simply don't want to see it. Winningest team in baseball, best manager, best stadium, great place to live, sell out crowds every game and a team with lots of money and all you can come up with is taxes?

 

[MarcoPolo]

.281 OBP? Ouch, babe.

If he were able to supply good D, than no prob. But if he is, as you say, a liability in the field, I see him as Hicks without the D and slightly more power.

Barring any other options, OK, but he is WAY down the list for me.

Edit:

I just noticed that he is not a 3B, but a 1B. I suspect you saw the "3" and your brain translated that to "3B"...

Last year was a career worst in both AVG and OBP. Anther reason he'd be cheap. He should give league average OPS (or close to it), and OBP is less important hitting 7th than when hitting 1st-5th.

Concerning 3B, his first year he played more at 3B (5) than any other position, which is why I said 'backup 3B' (it's been years). Considering how much he DHed (which I didn't notice before) his D may be as bad as Trumbo.

 

[calsnowskier]

They still consistently mention the budget and if you cannot see that the reason you give above should be a huge reason why FAs should want to sign here then this discussion is pointless. You simply don't want to see it. Winningest team in baseball, best manager, best stadium, great place to live, sell out crowds every game and a team with lots of money and all you can come up with is taxes?

Taxes are considerable for the top bracket. That means that the Giants have to come in considerably higher just to offer the same amount.

If you don't see that as an issue, I don't know what to tell you.

You also fail to acknowledge the long relationship between Epstein and Lester. That probably had more to do with his signing with the the Cubs than anything.

 

[calsnowskier]

Last year was a career worst in both AVG and OBP. Anther reason he'd be cheap. He should give league average OPS (or close to it), and OBP is less important hitting 7th than when hitting 1st-5th.

Concerning 3B, his first year he played more at 3B (5) than any other position, which is why I said 'backup 3B' (it's been years). Considering how much he DHed (which I didn't notice before) his D may be as bad as Trumbo.

Good points, but teams are not apt to trade players when their stock is low, unless they are only giving a light discount, or taking another teams "sell low" player (see the Angels/Pirates trade this year of closers).

Again, not an idea to just toss out the window, but I think Johnson and Headly are WAY better options at this point. Even Cabrera or Kang, I think, are better options (with Panik moving to 3B).

 

[MarcoPolo]

They still consistently mention the budget and if you cannot see that the reason you give above should be a huge reason why FAs should want to sign here then this discussion is pointless. You simply don't want to see it. Winningest team in baseball, best manager, best stadium, great place to live, sell out crowds every game and a team with lots of money and all you can come up with is taxes?

Most teams mention salary budget, generally every off-season, generally multiple times. You haven't noticed that? The Giants are not out-of-the-ordinary in that respect.

The Giants keep raising salaries, and have almost always been *at least* top 10 since they moved into their new park. The last few years they've been 5-7th.

after the 2009 season, for 2010 they raised budget by about 17%.
2010->2011, increase of ~ 23%
11->12, increase of ~11%
12->13, increase of ~ 4%
13->14, increase of ~ 9%

That doesn't sound like penny-pinchers to me.

As to why players don't want to sign here, after watching the 2007 HR derby before the all-star game, I suspect that a LOT of LH power hitters said to themselves 'no way in HELL I am ever going to sign a contract and play half my games HERE' - especially every LH hitter that was IN the HR derby.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Good points, but teams are not apt to trade players when their stock is low, unless they are only giving a light discount, or taking another teams "sell low" player (see the Angels/Pirates trade this year of closers).

Again, not an idea to just toss out the window, but I think Johnson and Headly are WAY better options at this point. Even Cabrera or Kang, I think, are better options (with Panik moving to 3B).

I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I wasn't saying he should be the starting 3B. I imagined him laying LF, where we have a light-hitting LHB, and he *could* be a 3B backup because he has played there in the past. I'd much rather have Johnson and Upton, myself. MLBTR says that ain't happening.

 

[Montalban]

Taxes are considerable for the top bracket. That means that the Giants have to come in considerably higher just to offer the same amount.

If you don't see that as an issue, I don't know what to tell you.

You also fail to acknowledge the long relationship between Epstein and Lester. That probably had more to do with his signing with the the Cubs than anything.

Lester is just one in a long long line of top FA talent who rejected the Giants. And I'm not particularly worried about Lester; I don't think he's that great.

It still concerns me though and makes me wonder why we can't sign top FA talent when those players, by all rights, and for the reasons I've gone over at length, should be beating the doors down to get in here.