#1 History Comp - Joe DiMaggio & Ted Williams

[DragonfromTO]

He could have raised a big stink about it and demanded to be traded or not play/sign. He didn't because he liked playing in Atlanta and wanted to end his career in Milwaukee where it started.

How often did that happen either though? I can't think of an obvious example of that happening but I haven't given it much thought.

 

[obxyankeefan]

NO, IT DOES NOT!

DEFENSE is needed along with offense to win championships but Williams cared only about his batting stats! Especially his homers.

Did it bother him at all that the Sinstripes won so many WSs while DiMaggio was with them while his Red Sox were in last place so often? The available evidence says it didn't. And as a manager after his playing career his teams were always good at hitting round-trippers but were usually well under .500, That's more evidence that he didn't give a bleep about glovework.

During DiMaggio's thirteen years with the Yankees they went to ten world series, the Red Sox went to one but finished second six times. So to say the Sox finished last so often is wrong. Williams and Doerr keep the Sox competitive while the pitching staff was sub par.

 

[StanMarsh51]

During DiMaggio's thirteen years with the Yankees they went to ten world series, the Red Sox went to one but finished second six times. So to say the Sox finished last so often is wrong. Williams and Doerr keep the Sox competitive while the pitching staff was sub par.

Yep...in the 10 seasons where DiMaggio and Williams' careers overlapped, the Red Sox won 908 games and lost 628. So basically, they averaged over 90 wins a year (in a 154 game season) during the years Williams played against DiMaggio. Also, in Boston's worst season during those 10 years, they were 10 games above .500

 

[Nosferatu]

Williams > DiMaggio... by a large margin

Mantle > Mays... but it's close

 

[steveringo]

On of my co-workers calls the Yankees, the "Spankees"... And we all just laugh and laugh....





at him....

 

[soxfan1468927]

NO, IT DOES NOT!

DEFENSE is needed along with offense to win championships but Williams cared only about his batting stats! Especially his homers.

Did it bother him at all that the Sinstripes won so many WSs while DiMaggio was with them while his Red Sox were in last place so often? The available evidence says it didn't. And as a manager after his playing career his teams were always good at hitting round-trippers but were usually well under .500, That's more evidence that he didn't give a bleep about glovework.

You think left field defense is critical to winning a championship? Thank god we had Manny Ramirez to help us break through!

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Value is added by playing more, especially if you perform at a relatively high level in those extra games (which Mays for the most part did). But at the same time, playing more can hurt your rate stats.

I don't know about that.

I haven't crunched the numbers but if you're telling me his tiring under the extra dozen or so games played is responsible for the 40 point difference in OBP then those had to be some awfully bad games. To then count those awfully bad games as an advantage seems downright silly.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

How often did that happen either though? I can't think of an obvious example of that happening but I haven't given it much thought.

I can't imagine that working out too well for a black guy down south in the '50s.

It probably wouldn't have worked out for a white guy in Boston either. I imagine the owners would have just let him leave until he came to his senses.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I don't know about that.

I haven't crunched the numbers but if you're telling me his tiring under the extra dozen or so games played is responsible for the 40 point difference in OBP then those had to be some awfully bad games. To then count those awfully bad games as an advantage seems downright silly.

Never said it was fully responsible, but what I am saying is that it could narrow the gap.

Mantle had roughly 9,900 career plate appearances. Mays was at roughly 9,800 plate appearances at the end of 1967, so the career total PAs were similar at that point.

Mays from1967 to the end of his career had a 138 OPS+ in almost 2,600 plate appearances, so it's not as if he was garbage in all this extra games (just as a basis for comparison on how good a 138 OPS+ is, David Ortiz has a career OPS+ of 139). If he had an 85 OPS+ during those extra games, you could argue that there wasn't much value since an 85 OPS+ isn't helping the team. But you'll have an incredibly hard time arguing that a 138 OPS+ over an additional 2,500 plate appearances isn't adding career value.

So Mays had an extra 2,500 plate appearances while performing at a high level in those 2,500 plate appearances.

 

[StanMarsh51]

And to add on to my prior post, Mantle's slugging went down significantly from .574 to .557 his last 2 seasons (1100 plate appearances). So imaging how much further it might have gone down with 2,500 more plate appearances.

 

[Brahmsian]

During DiMaggio's thirteen years with the Yankees they went to ten world series, the Red Sox went to one but finished second six times. So to say the Sox finished last so often is wrong. Williams and Doerr keep the Sox competitive while the pitching staff was sub par.

If only Williams had cared as much about fielding as Doerr did!

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

And to add on to my prior post, Mantle's slugging went down significantly from .574 to .557 his last 2 seasons (1100 plate appearances). So imaging how much further it might have gone down with 2,500 more plate appearances.

But if we're playing what-ifs then imagine what if Mantle wasn't injured his entire career?

I don't think Mays was a scrub who didn't deserve enshrinement. I just think Mantle was the better of the two. It's not like Mantle played a Jackie Robinson amount of games. If that were the case then I would concede Mays was better but it's not.

 

[StanMarsh51]

But if we're playing what-ifs then imagine what if Mantle wasn't injured his entire career?

You don't need to play what if...you can simply take it into context. And the context is that performing at a high level over a longer career adds value.

Were Clay Buccholz and Matt Harvey top 3 pitchers last year because of their great rate stats? Or can we take it into context and hold their relatively small workloasd (compared to other pitchers) against them? Extreme example, but it clearly illustrates the point.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

You don't need to play what if...you can simply take it into context. And the context is that performing at a high level over a longer career adds value.

Was Clay Buccholz the best pitcher in baseball last year because of his 1.74 ERA? Or can we take it into context and hold his relatively small workload (compared to other pitchers) against him? Extreme example, but that's the point.

But that's a stupid example because Buccholz pitched about half the innings guys like Kershaw pitched.

A better example would be Miguel Cabrera and Chris Davis. In fact the differences between OPS+ and GP are almost identical to Mantle and Mays. Is there really anyone not wearing a Baltimore hat that believes Crush was better than Miggy?

 

[StanMarsh51]

But that's a stupid example because Buccholz pitched about half the innings guys like Kershaw pitched.

A better example would be Miguel Cabrera and Chris Davis. In fact the differences between OPS+ and GP are almost identical to Mantle and Mays. Is there really anyone not wearing a Baltimore hat that believes Crush was better than Miggy?

Hence why I said 'extreme example.'


I don't think the Cabrera/Davis example is a good parallel.

For starters, Cabrera played a more demanding position (he wasn't good at it, but it was more demanding nonetheless), and Cabrera had only 21 less PAs. Mays had 26% more career PAs than Mantle by comparison, which is significant. The difference in OPS+ between Cabrera/Davis was 22 percentage points, whereas between Mays and Mantle is a lot closer in 16, and percentage points in OPS+ are a lot more significant than a regular point in OPS.

Not to mention, Cabrera's offensive WAR in 2013 was 29% higher than Davis. At the point in Mays career where he had a similar # of PAs to Mantle's final tally, the difference was less than 2% in oWAR.

You may not like oWAR, but it agrees with you that Cabrera was much better than Davis this year. It doesn't agree with however you that Mantle was clearly or easily better than Mays.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Hence why I said 'extreme example.'


I don't think the Cabrera/Davis example is a good parallel.

For starters, Cabrera played a more demanding position (he wasn't good at it, but it was more demanding nonetheless), and Cabrera had only 21 less PAs. Mays had 26% more career PAs than Mantle by comparison, which is significant. The difference in OPS+ between Cabrera/Davis was 22 percentage points, whereas between Mays and Mantle is a lot closer in 16, and percentage points in OPS+ are a lot more significant than a regular point in OPS.

Not to mention, Cabrera's offensive WAR in 2013 was 29% higher than Davis. At the point in Mays career where he had a similar # of PAs to Mantle's final tally, the difference was less than 2% in oWAR.

You may not like oWAR, but it agrees with you that Cabrera was much better than Davis this year. It doesn't agree with however you that Mantle was clearly or easily better than Mays.

So Buccholz vs Kershaw is a reasonable analogy but Cabrera vs Crush is not.

:rollseyes:

Is it safe to say you're just trolling and I hadn't picked up on it till now?

 

[StanMarsh51]

So Buccholz vs Kershaw is a comparison analogy but Cabrera vs Crush is not.

:rollseyes:

Is it safe to say you're just trolling and I hadn't picked up on it till now?

It wasn't a particularly good example, I agree....if you look back at that post, I edited the post shortly after to add Harvey to the mix (since he threw 170+ innings), and changed 'best' to 'top 3' pitchers, but you replied before that the edit was made. So brainfart on my part (maybe my sinus infection), but no trolling.

Back to oWAR....I consider it a useful tool (although all stats have flaws). It clearly stated that Cabrera had a better season than Davis offensively (8.9 oWAR compared to 6.9 for Davis). For Mays vs Mantle, the difference in oWAR between their 10,000 plate appearance samples was only 2. So offensively, there isn't much of a difference. oWAR. Baserunning could've partially made up for the things Mays trailed in, considering he at that point had 300 steals.

And after that point where they had the similar oWAR, Mays continued to have another 2,500+ PAs with a 138 OPS+, which definitely adds career value.

You could make the same point about DiMaggio (although Mantle had a longer career). His lack of longevity hurt him in comparisons against other players.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Just running some quick numbers in the Mantle-Mays comparison.

Mantle ended up with a 172 OPS+ in 9,907 plate appearances
Mays ended up with a 156 OPS+ in 12,496 plate appearances (2,589 more than Mantle)

Using weighted averages, if Mantle had played longer to accumulate 2,589 more plate appearances (and have the same as Mays), here are some possibilities of where he could've ended up OPS+ wise:

If Mantle had a 160 OPS+ over his next 2,589 PAs, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 169
If he had a 150 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 167
If he had a 140 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 165
If he had a 130 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 163
If he had a 120 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 161
If he had a 110 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 159
If he had a 100 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 157

The last 2 seasons of Mantle's career, he had a 147 OPS+, and it appeared to be steadily declining. In the 2nd half of his final season, his OPS+ was 131 for what its worth.

So depending on how far he could've declined had he kept playing, his OPS+ could've ended in the same ballpark as Mays. Obviously this is purely theoretical, but it shows the effect of playing longer on a player's rate stats.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Just running some quick numbers in the Mantle-Mays comparison.

Mantle ended up with a 172 OPS+ in 9,907 plate appearances
Mays ended up with a 156 OPS+ in 12,496 plate appearances (2,589 more than Mantle)

Using weighted averages, if Mantle had played longer to accumulate 2,589 more plate appearances (and have the same as Mays), here are some possibilities of where he could've ended up OPS+ wise:

If Mantle had a 160 OPS+ over his next 2,589 PAs, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 169
If he had a 150 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 167
If he had a 140 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 165
If he had a 130 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 163
If he had a 120 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 161
If he had a 110 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 159
If he had a 100 OPS+, his career OPS+ would've dropped from 172 to 157

The last 2 seasons of Mantle's career, he had a 147 OPS+, and it appeared to be steadily declining. In the 2nd half of his final season, his OPS+ was 131 for what its worth.

So depending on how far he could've declined had he kept playing, his OPS+ could've ended in the same ballpark as Mays. Obviously this is purely theoretical, but it shows the effect of playing longer on a player's rate stats.

Yeah but you're probably in the very, very small minority of people who feel Mickey Mantle's numbers would have declined had he not had so many health issues. "What if The Mick had been healthy?" is a common question asked by baseball fans but this is the first I've ever heard anyone speculate how bad he could have been.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Yeah but you're probably in the very, very small minority of people who feel Mickey Mantle's numbers would have declined had he not had so many health issues. "What if The Mick had been healthy?" is a common question asked by baseball fans but this is the first I've ever heard anyone speculate how bad he could have been.

When did I ever say that? You're putting those words in my mouth.


We know how he performed in his career. Now we try to speculate what would've happened had he played a few years longer. We can't act as if the injuries didn't happen, because they did happen. If Mantle's career, as is (those are the key words: as is), were extended for a few more years (he held on to reach milestones or needed the money or whatever), what would've/could've/likely happened in that extra playing time? That's the point I'm trying to argue.


You're misinterpreting my argument.