#1 History Comp - Joe DiMaggio & Ted Williams

[geneh_33]

Thanks for the lesson about Mickey Mantle. I always knew he was very good, but I didn't know he had stats like that. He was greater than I had thought he was!

 

[steveringo]

I HATE voting for a Sinstriper over a Red Sox player but Williams was simply not as complete a ballplayer
as DiMaggio was and seemingly didn't care about it.

If the Sinstripes had been willing to swap the 2 straight up Tom Yawkey should have said "Done deal!" And thrown in a "Thank you!"

Why do you call them "Sinstripes"?

 

[ChicagoIrish]

Thanks for the lesson about Mickey Mantle. I always knew he was very good, but I didn't know he had stats like that. He was greater than I had thought he was!

Mickey Mantle is a baseball God.

If not for playing his entire career injured or shit faced, he's probably the greatest player to ever play the game.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

From the replies I would have to say I was wrong about how lopsided the Mantle Mays discussion would be.

I think defense has become horribly overrated today.

I would take Mantle's production at the plate over Mays' "the catch" any day.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I think defense has become horribly overrated today.

I would take Mantle's production at the plate over Mays' "the catch" any day.

But it's not as if Mantle was a 10 offensively and Mays was a 7....

Mays has a 136 career offensive WAR, and Mantle has a 116 oWAR...and if you want to argue that the gap is because Mays played longer, consider that Mays up to 1967 (where he had just 100 less career plate appearances than Mantle), Mays had a 114 oWAR compared to Mantle's 116.

So through the same # of plate appearances, you can make the case that they were about equal offensively....and that's before taking into account Mays playing for a couple years more (which does add value since he was productive during those extra years), and he was much better defensively.

So I think the notion that Mantle was so much better offensively is exaggerated.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

But it's not as if Mantle was a 10 offensively and Mays was a 7....

Mays has a 136 career offensive WAR, and Mantle has a 116 oWAR...and if you want to argue that the gap is because Mays played longer, consider that Mays up to 1967 (where he had just 100 less career plate appearances than Mantle), Mays had a 114 oWAR compared to Mantle's 116.

So through the same # of plate appearances, you can make the case that they were about equal offensively....and that's before taking into account Mays playing for a couple years more (which does add value since he was productive during those extra years), and he was much better defensively.

So I think the notion that Mantle was so much better offensively is exaggerated.

I don't know what you consider so much better but I think he was clearly better.

I don't go in for WAR but, when you look at their lines, a 40 point different in OBP is pretty significant and I don't think defense is all that important. I think defensive metrics are even less important and downright foolish.

 

[ChicagoIrish]

But it's not as if Mantle was a 10 offensively and Mays was a 7....

Mays has a 136 career offensive WAR, and Mantle has a 116 oWAR...and if you want to argue that the gap is because Mays played longer, consider that Mays up to 1967 (where he had just 100 less career plate appearances than Mantle), Mays had a 114 oWAR compared to Mantle's 116.

So through the same # of plate appearances, you can make the case that they were about equal offensively....and that's before taking into account Mays playing for a couple years more (which does add value since he was productive during those extra years), and he was much better defensively.

So I think the notion that Mantle was so much better offensively is exaggerated.

I will say this, Mays had a higher value than Mantle. Simply because Mays kept himself healthy, while Mantle all but wasted away the most pure talent of any baseball player.

 

[steveringo]

I wish this were a separate thread...

I'd take Mays over Mantle. Average, Power, Speed, Arm. He had it all, and a lot of it. He was also only the 11th Black MLBer - so he probably had some tough times playing....

I will say Mantle was probably the greatest switch-hitter of all time... And, as stated, you gotta wonder what he could have accomplished if he was "healthy"...

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

I wish this were a separate thread...

I'd take Mays over Mantle. Average, Power, Speed, Arm. He had it all, and a lot of it. He was also only the 11th Black MLBer - so he probably had some tough times playing....

I will say Mantle was probably the greatest switch-hitter of all time... And, as stated, you gotta wonder what he could have accomplished if he was "healthy"...

You have to love a world where skin color is even a factor when discussing better baseball players.

 

[ChicagoIrish]

You have to love a world where skin color is even a factor when discussing better baseball players.

Same thing I was thinking.

Not to mention, Mantle was actually faster than Mays until he blew his knee out.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I don't know what you consider so much better but I think he was clearly better.

I don't go in for WAR but, when you look at their lines, a 40 point different in OBP is pretty significant and I don't think defense is all that important. I think defensive metrics are even less important and downright foolish.

The durability aspect could have an effect on rate stats....maybe not fully close the gap on certain things, but it could certainly make things closer.

If you were to exclude Mantle's first season, from 1952-1968, he averaged 136 games per season and only had 6 years playing above 145 games.

Mays by comparison from 1954 to 1970 (also a 17 year stretch), he averaged 150 games a season, and also played in 150+ games for the majority of his overall career.

It may not seem like much, but those extra 15 or so games a year might have an effect on rate stats...similar to pitchers who pitch more innings, position players who play more games could see an adverse effect on their rate stats, given that the higher workload might make you tire out more or give the opposing batter/pitcher more chances to face you which may put you at a disadvantage.

 

[geneh_33]

Mickey Mantle is a baseball God.

If not for playing his entire career injured or shit faced, he's probably the greatest player to ever play the game.

Down here in Atlanta we have a preference for Hank Aaron, hey, we're homeys. Of course he isn't the greatest player of all time but he did stick with us even though we sucked as a team. If he had played for the Yankees there is no telling how many homers he would have hit.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Down here in Atlanta we have a preference for Hank Aaron, hey, we're homeys. Of course he isn't the greatest player of all time but he did stick with us even though we sucked as a team. If he had played for the Yankees there is no telling how many homers he would have hit.

Free agency wasn't established in MLB until Hank was 42 years old and playing his final season with the Brewers, what choice did he really have?

 

[steveringo]

You have to love a world where skin color is even a factor when discussing better baseball players.

It is very sad and a little hard to imagine that had had separate leagues just a little while ago.... Integration was very tough, especially during the Civil Rights Movement.

I've always believed major league sports helped tremendously with desegregation. Players like Willie Mays were great ambassadors for equal right...

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

The durability aspect could have an effect on rate stats....maybe not fully close the gap on certain things, but it could certainly make things closer.

If you were to exclude Mantle's first season, from 1952-1968, he averaged 136 games per season and only had 6 years playing above 145 games.

Mays by comparison from 1954 to 1970 (also a 17 year stretch), he averaged 150 games a season, and also played in 150+ games for the majority of his overall career.

It may not seem like much, but those extra 15 or so games a year might have an effect on rate stats...similar to pitchers who pitch more innings, position players who play more games could see an adverse effect on their rate stats, given that the higher workload might make you tire out more or give the opposing batter/pitcher more chances to face you which may put you at a disadvantage.

I don't know. Mantle wasn't missing those games because he was in tip-top shape. I imagine all of his ailments and simple abuse of his body took an awfully big toll on his rate stats too.

Mays played in more games but at some point that stops mattering to me. It's not like we're talking about a starting pitcher and reliever here. Both Mantle and Mays played full careers. Quibbling about who took more ABs seems to be quibbling for the sake of quibbling.

It's not like I think Mantle was drastically better. I just think defense is overrated and he was the better of the two on offense.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I don't know. Mantle wasn't missing those games because he was in tip-top shape. I imagine all of his ailments and simple abuse of his body took an awfully big toll on his rate stats too.

Mays played in more games but at some point that stops mattering to me. It's not like we're talking about a starting pitcher and reliever here. Both Mantle and Mays played full careers. Quibbling about who took more ABs seems to be quibbling for the sake of quibbling.

It's not like I think Mantle was drastically better. I just think defense is overrated and he was the better of the two on offense.

And for all we know, playing in an extra 15 games/year could've contributed to him breaking down or declining quicker, or shaved a few points off his average/OPS

Just look at a couple of seasons from Mantle when he played 150+ games:

Mantle 1961 - played 153 games, and lost 8 points on average and 28 points on OPS the last 11 games of the season

Mantle 1956 - played 150 games, and in his last 21 games (15 of which were starts with 6 pinch hit appearances), he lost 26 points in OPS

Mantle 1958 - played 150 games, and lost 14 points in OPS his last 15 games of the season


So in 3 of Mantle's 4 seasons where he played 150+ games, his OPS went down by a notable amount in those games final few weeks. Could it have been that teams just stepped up their games in Sept? Maybe, but it could very well be that with more games under his belt, he's more likely to tire down and such. You could probably do the same for Mays and many other players (particular those at a demanding position like CF) and the trend might be the same, that as you get closer to a full season of games, your rate stats decline.


You can say the increased games played don't matter after a point, but I'd argue otherwise, especially when the gap is around 15 games a season.

 

[geneh_33]

Free agency wasn't established in MLB until Hank was 42 years old and playing his final season with the Brewers, what choice did he really have?

He could have raised a big stink about it and demanded to be traded or not play/sign. He didn't because he liked playing in Atlanta and wanted to end his career in Milwaukee where it started.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

And for all we know, playing in an extra 15 games/year could've contributed to him breaking down or declining quicker, or shaved a few points off his average/OPS

Just look at a couple of seasons from Mantle when he played 150+ games:

Mantle 1961 - played 153 games, and lost 8 points on average and 28 points on OPS the last 11 games of the season

Mantle 1956 - played 150 games, and in his last 21 games (15 of which were starts with 6 pinch hit appearances), he lost 26 points in OPS

Mantle 1958 - played 150 games, and lost 14 points in OPS his last 15 games of the season

So in 3 of Mantle's 4 seasons where he played 150+ games, his OPS went down by a notable amount in those games final few weeks. Could it have been that teams just stepped up their games in Sept? Maybe, but it could very well be that with more games under his belt, he's more likely to tire down and such. You could probably do the same for Mays and many other players (particular those at a demanding position like CF) and the trend might be the same, that as you get closer to a full season of games, your rate stats decline.

You can say the increased games played don't matter after a point, but I'd argue otherwise, especially when the gap is around 15 games a season.

I don't doubt a long season can weigh on a player but that's the breaks.

The stats are what the stats are. On the one hand you're pointing to Mays' additional games as being an advantage while on the other hand you're pointing to them as being a detriment to his overall numbers. The latter seems like an odd point considering that Mantle missed games because of his ailments. He managed to muscle through and put up better numbers. If Mays didn't then Mays didn't.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I don't doubt a long season can weigh on a player but that's the breaks.

The stats are what the stats are. On the one hand you're pointing to Mays' additional games as being an advantage while on the other hand you're pointing to them as being a detriment to his overall numbers. The latter seems like an odd point considering that Mantle missed games because of his ailments. He managed to muscle through and put up better numbers. If Mays didn't then Mays didn't.

Value is added by playing more, especially if you perform at a relatively high level in those extra games (which Mays for the most part did). But at the same time, playing more can hurt your rate stats.

An extreme example, but one that I think shows the point is a comparison of Pedro vs Randy Johnson. Johnson had more career value by pitching 1300 more innings (for many of which he was a quality pitcher). Johnson's career rate stats weren't as good as Pedro's, but a good amount of that can be attributed to Pedro not being as durable. Johnson for instance had as many 240 inning seasons as Pedro had 200 inning seasons. If Pedro had the workload that Johnson had, you could probably reasonably presume that Pedro's rate stats take a hit (higher ERA, WHIP, worse BB/9, etc).

Pedro had a 2.93 ERA in his 2800 inning career. Johnson had a 2800 inning stretch from 1990-2002 where he had a 2.97 ERA. But then we include the rest of Johnson's extra seasons and innings, and his rate stats take a hit, just as Mays' rate stats take a hit (to a lesser extent though).

 

[Brahmsian]

Williams' offensive advantage easily makes up for any gap in defense/baserunning that DiMaggio had

NO, IT DOES NOT!

DEFENSE is needed along with offense to win championships but Williams cared only about his batting stats! Especially his homers.

Did it bother him at all that the Sinstripes won so many WSs while DiMaggio was with them while his Red Sox were in last place so often? The available evidence says it didn't. And as a manager after his playing career his teams were always good at hitting round-trippers but were usually well under .500, That's more evidence that he didn't give a bleep about glovework.