Time for a change

[cdumler7]

You're right, but where I'm going with this is...maybe the old dog new trick thing needs to be tweaked to get the most out of the old dog...I'm not saying the Broncos are in danger of folding with Os, but I wouldn't be comfortable thinking I could close out the DIV with Brock. That's a lot to put on his shoulders with the team smack in the middle of the good season.

Can you feel all that comfortable though with a QB that is playing like the 32nd ranked QB in the league? I mean Osweiler would have to do a lot to play just as bad as that of Manning. Now maybe he does go out and stink it up but we know what we have with Manning...A very limited offense that teams just don't respect his game anymore. Teams have all 11 guys for the most part within 15 yards of the LOS. They don't think he can throw deep anymore and so far this season he hasn't been able to. It is why teams are sending the house at him on blitzes because when he can't step into his throws they are wildly inaccurate leading to terrible interceptions that have cost this team especially the last couple of weeks.

 

[Orange Crush77]

Do those stats take into account pick/sixes going both ways?

 

[randymon]

I get what your saying Steeler but the "largest" problem is even with a somewhat or completely healthy Manning,because of his diminished arm strength etc, defenses know exactly how to defend him now. Because he needs to be able to step up in pocket to get any velocity thus accuracy on his throws they are blitzing and clogging up the middle and playing tight coverage on the quick intermediate routes of the wrs. They have no fear of Manning rolling right ( left isn`t even an option) and being accurate with his throws. A Manning run offense is basically a defensive coaches dream to game plan for. At least with Oz, their is the threat to run,move left or right and keep D`s at least "wary" anyway. I could actually see the run game improve also with Oz at the helm. It doesn`t matter if Manning can read D`s better than anyody else if he can`t make the throws unless he has a perfect pocket and able to step up in his throws. Well sorry to say,in the NFL you have to be able to make the throws on your back foot,flat footed, on the run,etc in this league. He`s been great, he`s battled serious injuries and he`s 39 friggin yrs old. Oz is Denvers best shot to at least win div anyway.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Well I think of Osweiler plays good this week against Chicago it is going to be hard to turn the game back over to Manning even if he is a HOF. Listening to some of the players after the game talk his WR's especially did not call Manning "My QB." They seem to be very frustrated with this offense right now under Manning. I think the entire offense is not happen. CJ Anderson I think only got something like 2 carries. So again if the offense does much better in this next game how do you then switch back to the QB that just threw 4 interceptions in a game?

We will just have to see what Osweiler does in this next game. Honestly many Bronco fans were hoping that this would be Osweiler's season. The team needs to see if he is the future. This isn't like it is just some back up QB that you put in because you have no other choice. This is the guy that they drafted in the hopes he would be the man for the next 10-15 years. I think that changes things. Now say Osweiler goes out and plays terrible then yeah if Manning is healthy you make the switch back.

Not an easy situation but if played right could be huge for this team moving forward.

Obviously you know I'm a PM guy...I haven't seen enough of Os to say he's the heir apparent or not.

If this goes like it does most of the time...Os is probably going to play...okay...not great, not terrible.

I've seen it written more than once...Kubiak's system...well...they knew some time ago that Manning was not truly the best fit for what he likes to do...if it's about running his system better and Os can do it better...okay, make the change.

Bottomline imo...if Manning can no longer be reasonably consistent (whether it's the old system or the new) maybe you give Os a game because you do have some margin to work with, but mid-season somewhat healthy scratching a HOF QB...that's a tough one.

 

[cdumler7]

Do those stats take into account pick/sixes going both ways?

They do. This is why stats can be so deceiving. Our defense doesn't actually give up that many points and our offense doesn't score that many points.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Do those stats take into account pick/sixes going both ways?

Good question...you'd have to have a ton pick 6s go against you or for you to effect the avgs very much.

 

[cdumler7]

Obviously you know I'm a PM guy...I haven't seen enough of Os to say he's the heir apparent or not.

If this goes like it does most of the time...Os is probably going to play...okay...not great, not terrible.

I've seen it written more than once...Kubiak's system...well...they knew some time ago that Manning was not truly the best fit for what he likes to do...if it's about running his system better and Os can do it better...okay, make the change.

Bottomline imo...if Manning can no longer be reasonably consistent (whether it's the old system or the new) maybe you give Os a game because you do have some margin to work with, but mid-season somewhat healthy scratching a HOF QB...that's a tough one.

The issue in my opinion though with the system is they have been running a more Manning style system than a Kubiak system. After the first game of the season against Baltimore the team made the switch to get him in the pistol or shot gun almost 95% of all plays. This made life much harder on the run game as it is not ideal and makes it very easy for teams to figure out where we want to run it.

Believe me I was a Manning supporter and I was completely in his corner until this last game. I was one that used the excuses that have been out there. Manning just isn't making the basic throws he used to make. He is misreading defenses left and right. Most of his interceptions have been mental errors where he throws it right to the defender. It isn't even injury related in my opinion. He is trying to force things that just are not there and it is costing this team big time.

I have shown this before but if you go back and look at a few of our games this year we honestly should have blown some teams out. Manning's interceptions have cost this team big time. The Vikings game is the best example. The team was up I think 13-3 with the offense driving looking like they were going to score right before half time really putting the game away. Instead Manning throws a terrible interception that lead to a quick touchdown for the Vikings turning a game from a blow out to a close game. It was a terrible throw where the defender knew exactly where Manning was throwing the football. This has happened a lot this year where teams just know exactly what Manning is going to do or at least what he is limited in his ability to do. It just is time for the switch. That doesn't mean it will work out well for us but Manning has been holding this team back almost the entire year.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

They do. This is why stats can be so deceiving. Our defense doesn't actually give up that many points and our offense doesn't score that many points.

Yeah, but it doesn't change the average that much.

 

[cdumler7]

Good question...you'd have to have a ton pick 6s go against you or for you to effect the avgs very much.

Well Manning has actually thrown the most in the league. We also have the most returned for touchdowns in the league. So the Broncos average has the biggest difference in the league right now in actual numbers. If you take away the defensive touchdowns/safety/special teams touchdown the Broncos actual number on offense is that of 18.7 points per game. That would put them at 27th in the league. Now obviously other teams have had some similar things happen but the point differential wouldn't be as big. Now on defense the Broncos have had 3 pick 6's returned on them. So the actual number for our defense is giving up 16.3 points per game. Now have to remember a lot of our games this year have gone like this last one where teams have taken advantage of points off turnovers since we have had so many. This past game alone 20 of the 29 points for the Chiefs came off of turnovers.

 

[cdumler7]

Yeah, but it doesn't change the average that much.

Well it changed our offense by 5 points a game. I would say that is pretty decent.

 

[Orange Crush77]

And not only that but our D has bludgeoned teams with turnovers, putting our offense in great position too

 

[Draft Crazy]

Friends laugh at me, but when I say bring in RG3 next year to compete I aint lying.

New scheme, new system, better weapons, fresh start.

Now if Os kills it this year, no need, but if he looks average, iffy or not the answer then I say go for it. Buy low. Have him compete.

 

[Broncosr0k]

Bottomline imo...if Manning can no longer be reasonably consistent

Have you seen that to be the case this year?

I like Manning. Liked him when he was with the colts and destroying the broncos but something is very wrong. I do think the injuries are a legit concern. After he heals, can he come back and be the Manning of 2012 or 20113 or early 2014? Or do we have the Manning of late 2014? I don't think our coaches can get fully up to speed on a Manning offense and I don't think Manning can play QB and coach the offense. So we cannot just revert to his system. And Manning does not fit into Kubiaks. Part of the reason he did not go to the Texans.

So we look at this hybrid that has not been working. And my concern over his arm strength or mobility has been the terrible decisions this year. Throwing into double and triple coverage, not seeing the open guy, etc.

 

[cdumler7]

Have you seen that to be the case this year?

I like Manning. Liked him when he was with the colts and destroying the broncos but something is very wrong. I do think the injuries are a legit concern. After he heals, can he come back and be the Manning of 2012 or 20113 or early 2014? Or do we have the Manning of late 2014? I don't think our coaches can get fully up to speed on a Manning offense and I don't think Manning can play QB and coach the offense. So we cannot just revert to his system. And Manning does not fit into Kubiaks. Part of the reason he did not go to the Texans.

So we look at this hybrid that has not been working. And my concern over his arm strength or mobility has been the terrible decisions this year. Throwing into double and triple coverage, not seeing the open guy, etc.

That last part is the concerning thing for me. It isn't just injuries slowing him down. It is his mind just doesn't seem to be seeing things the same. I do think because of the inability to be consistent with the deep balls it has allowed teams to drop guys into those zone spots where he loves to hit those come back routes or the slants. He has been limited on the throws he can make so with teams crowding the LOS they have dared Manning to kill them with the deep ball. He has thrown it a ton this year and hit a few times but it just is not consistent enough to scare teams. They are willing to give up the one big throw he makes a game knowing the inconsistency they can force some major mistakes by Manning. This goes way beyond just him not being able to fit into a Kubiak system or the hybrid system they have been running this year.

 

[AmericanTebowFan]

I defended Manning this season and kept saying there is no way you bench a hall of fame QB in his final season. I thought that he could dig down deep and play some big games when it really matters in the playoffs. However, I've completely changed my mind. I just can't watch anymore of this garbage. Sadly the guy is SHOT. Not only the weak arm and injuries, but he's shot MENTALLY as well. It's mind boggling how many bad decisions he's making, as cdumler talked about. He just throws the ball right to defenders. It's very sad watching what was the most intelligent QB in the league turn into an idiot out there. The problem is his confidence is shot, and a QB that isn't confident is a bad QB. I can't see him coming back from this and giving us a good run of games when we need to win in the playoffs. I don't know if Osweiler can do it. Probably not this season, but it's worth a shot because Manning is FINISHED.

 

[Malibu]

Has nothing to do with injuries for Manning. If he was playing injuries are no excuse. Time for Oz to start and see what he can do. Manning is done.

 

[SpiritOf77]

Friends laugh at me, but when I say bring in RG3 next year to compete I aint lying.

New scheme, new system, better weapons, fresh start.

Now if Os kills it this year, no need, but if he looks average, iffy or not the answer then I say go for it. Buy low. Have him compete.

I like Oz, and I think he can be the guy

But if we're talking about bringing someone in, I'm all in on Kap

 

[Manimal Sighting]

If we played this season with almost any other QB, could we even justify leaving him(manning) in through this point in the year? I have been waiting for years to see what Brock can do, for better or worse im excited to see what he can do. Also because of geography they switched to the giants-pats game and I missed Os playing. I know it was garbage time but how did he look?

 

[Mingo]

The current level of the offense is pretty bad - considering - Vasquez - Mathis, Sanders and DT are pro bowl quality players on offense. Oz can QB sneak to a lot of 1st downs - he can roll out and run - keeping the defense very honest and he can whip that ball around the field.

Oz - also will have cold spells as a passer - and make rookie mistakes.

 

[Manimal Sighting]

watching manning attempt a bootleg (don't think it qualifies as any better) gets me ready to see if we can use the talent we have better in kubiaks scheme. Also still very concerned with the o-line...just like all year