Done with KC

[Darrell Green Fan]

One more quick note: I know it's early yet but the Rams have been cashing in all those picks for a while now and they're as bad as ever. Not many folks see that changing any time soon, do you Shark? If so please show your work.

Just goes to show that without a QB #1 picks don't mean that much. And by keeping them, and going with Cousins or some other QB who is not ready for prime time (and yes that included Ryan Tannehill who nobody is confusing with Andrew Luck) we'd probably be in the exact same situation we are in right now. As discussed our troubles go a lot deeper than a the loss of those picks so you need to STOP blaming our current situation on that trade.

 

[Sharkinva]

Know what's great about this place? You put up a post to Shark and by the time you come back he has responded nearly every time. Damn dude you got a job or what?

Just to be clear do I think right now, today, Griff is worth what we gave up? No. No I do not and I have never said he is. But I do think it was worth the risk and the difference in our positions is I believe it is not a done deal that he will never work out and you do. I'm willing to give it time, you have already written the final chapter on a 24 year old player and to me that's just crazy.

THats the beauty of working in IT, this place breaks up the monotony of 12 hour days doing IT support. So yes, I get paid pretty good even while Im in here most of the time.

As for closing the book n a 24 year old player, happens all the time. Ever heard of Jamarcus Russell?? Or Jimmy Clausen?? Heck if you want to go closer to home Bacari Rambo ring a bell?? And Im not saying the team has to close the book on him. BUt if every one gets so enamored with what a guy COULD be, they generally never really look at what he actually is. Personally I thought he was a bad idea from day one, so shoot me because my opinion of a player doesnt change simply because we drafted him.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

THats the beauty of working in IT, this place breaks up the monotony of 12 hour days doing IT support. So yes, I get paid pretty good even while Im in here most of the time.

As for closing the book n a 24 year old player, happens all the time. Ever heard of Jamarcus Russell?? Or Jimmy Clausen?? Heck if you want to go closer to home Bacari Rambo ring a bell?? And Im not saying the team has to close the book on him. BUt if every one gets so enamored with what a guy COULD be, they generally never really look at what he actually is. Personally I thought he was a bad idea from day one, so shoot me because my opinion of a player doesnt change simply because we drafted him.

Message boards are filled with IT and sales guys. You are one, I am the other

I may need some of your technical help here. I'm having a problem with my laptop because it just said that you just compared a record setting Rookie of the Year QB with 2 clowns who were nothing short of horrible in their short stays in the league. There is no way anyone with any football knowledge would ever say something so crazy so clearly I've got a problem with my laptop.

Do you have any experience fixing this sort of thing?

 

[Sharkinva]

Message boards are filled with IT and sales guys. You are one, I am the other

I may need some of your technical help here. I'm having a problem with my laptop because it just said that you just compared a record setting Rookie of the Year QB with 2 clowns who were nothing short of horrible in their short stays in the league. There is no way anyone with any football knowledge would ever say something so crazy so clearly I've got a problem with my laptop.

Do you have any experience fixing this sort of thing?

Se I dont put as much stock in his record setting year as you do apparently. Let me ask you a question.... Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson for the Belt. Did that Make Buster one of the greatest of all time?? He had a record setting rookie year, and has proceeded to look average afterwards. Mark Rypien had a record setting season and won a Super Bowl... did that make him a franchise QB?? Again you are seeing what you want him to be. IM seeing what i expected actually. 2012 was the anomaly not the norm. Without the read option and his legs, he is average.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Se I dont put as much stock in his record setting year as you do apparently. Let me ask you a question.... Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson for the Belt. Did that Make Buster one of the greatest of all time?? He had a record setting rookie year, and has proceeded to look average afterwards. Mark Rypien had a record setting season and won a Super Bowl... did that make him a franchise QB?? Again you are seeing what you want him to be. IM seeing what i expected actually. 2012 was the anomaly not the norm. Without the read option and his legs, he is average.

Great posts and great questions. Mark Rypien stepped into a near perfect situation which was a huge factor in his success. Once Camelot began to crumble he reverted to, well, Mark Rypien. A QB with very limited skills. Not even close to this situation. Of course I don't consider Buster Douglas an all time great. Hell I'm still pissed at myself for missing that fight. I was at the beach on vacation and it was on HBO, I was on another channel watching a rerun of an old Sugar Ray Leanard fight. But I digress

Back on point as I've said a hundred times now obviously their are still questions on Griff. And of course 2012 does not buy him unlimited auditions. But again the difference between Griff and Cousins, as well as the examples you have used, is at least Griffin has done it on this level. And yes because of that this buys him additional time and it's crazy to write him off in part because of this success. I think that would be common sense. It sure makes it more likely that he will succeed than someone who has never proven to be effective at this level.

 

[Sharkinva]

Great posts and great questions. Mark Rypien stepped into a near perfect situation which was a huge factor in his success. Once Camelot began to crumble he reverted to, well, Mark Rypien. A QB with very limited skills. Not even close to this situation. Of course I don't consider Buster Douglas an all time great. Hell I'm still pissed at myself for missing that fight. I was at the beach on vacation and it was on HBO, I was on another channel watching a rerun of an old Sugar Ray Leanard fight. But I digress

Back on point as I've said a hundred times now obviously their are still questions on Griff. And of course 2012 does not buy him unlimited auditions. But again the difference between Griff and Cousins, as well as the examples you have used, is at least Griffin has done it on this level. And yes because of that this buys him additional time and it's crazy to write him off in part because of this success. I think that would be common sense. It sure makes it more likely that he will succeed than someone who has never proven to be effective at this level.

Same window, looking in a different direction. And by that I mean simply, you are willing to expect him to succeed because he HAS done it on this level. Where as I have seen more HOF to atleast frnachise guys who went through the Kirk Cousins period early on, but eventually became what is considered a good to great QB. RG3 has one year wonder on him right now. And because of his style of play, and his apparent frailty, 2012 may be the defining year of his career. I have seen plenty of rookies come in, blow up and then fizzle out. IM not saying Kirk is or should be the answer. BUt I am not and actually never was sold RG3 is. At best I expected an upgraded more accurate Vick. And on this I have not been disappointed.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I understand your point Shark, it makes much more sense than continuing to harp on the trade. By the way I'd like your thoughts on my post on the Rams.

Back to your last post I never wrote that I "expect" Griffin to succeed, need to correct you there. My position has always been he certainly has the talent and the hardware to make it worth seeing if he can become the guy. While the list of great rookie QBs who fizzled exist, although I really can't think of all that many, again it's mostly littered with guys who don't throw the ball nearly as well as Robert Griffin III does. Who exactly is on that list? Vince Young, Vick, who else you got?

What's odd about our disagreement is I was on your side for the last 30 years. My line about mobile QBs was always "having a QB who can run is like being married to a super model that can cook, strictly a bonus. I"ll take the guy who hits what he is throwing at every time.". And I've never had a problem with young QBs throwing picks, it kind of goes with the territory

But that was then, this is now. The days of Clipboard Jesus are gone, your rookie QB no longer sits for 3 years, he plays now.. It's also the era of the mobile QB, again just look at all the very effective mobile QBs who are playing and succeeding now. You continue to trash the read option but again it's used by the majority of the league including many of the top teams. And again Griffin hits what he is throwing at.

 

[Sharkinva]

DGF.. .as far as the Rams go. They have done some good and bad things. Worst of them has clearly been having no plan B for a fragile QB. And dont get me wrong I was a huge Bradford fan when he came out. In fact i was hoping we would have gotten him and wanted us to make the trade up for him. But with all they got from the trade, its quite possible both teams lost in this deal. How ever if they end up with 3-5 starters out of this, they were the smaller loser. For us to win, RG3 has to get a Lombardi for DC period.

 

[skinsdad62]

shark there isnt a qb on this planet you will be happy with


Kc has started what 7 games ? and he is a scrub already ?

i will say this , colt wont make the mistakes that KC does and he is a little more mobile but colt would be a game manager type

but there isnt any real reason to put colt in

better to play our young guys and let them learn

 

[Sharkinva]

shark there isnt a qb on this planet you will be happy with


Kc has started what 7 games ? and he is a scrub already ?

i will say this , colt wont make the mistakes that KC does and he is a little more mobile but colt would be a game manager type

but there isnt any real reason to put colt in

better to play our young guys and let them learn

Not true, the guy I wanted out of the 2012 draft plays down the road from me.

As far as Kirk goes, Im just trying to fall in line like a good Marine should. Kirk has been found wanting by the masses, so he must be executed before another turn of the clock.

 

[j_y19]

shark there isnt a qb on this planet you will be happy with


Kc has started what 7 games ? and he is a scrub already ?

i will say this , colt wont make the mistakes that KC does and he is a little more mobile but colt would be a game manager type

but there isnt any real reason to put colt in

better to play our young guys and let them learn

There are a couple of reasons why you might put Colt in. First, he is under contract longer than KC. Which means when KC leaves, he may end up being our backup longer term. Second, if/when KC continues his INT parade and kills any chances we have at a win, how could Colt be worse? Why not see what he does in Gruden's offense.

Having said this, I am of the mind that you stick with KC to see if he can grow out of this. I'm not expecting he can only because this is an issue he has always had and why he dropped to the 4th round. His INTs have less to do with bad reads and more to do with mental lapses where he folds under pressure. His mechanics go out the door when the heat is on.

 

[Sportster 72]

You do realize that there are a few well known QBs in the not too distant past that apparently had this exact issue. I wonder if two IM thinking of would have their gold jackets if their respective teams had said... well he puts up points but turns it over too often.

Im just saying you know.

shark I like Cousins and he can still work on things but I can promise you he is not Dan Marino.

 

[Sharkinva]

shark I like Cousins and he can still work on things but I can promise you he is not Dan Marino.

He doesnt have to be Marino, and i dont expect him to be. But I guess Im the only one that see's the disconnect here.

We draft a QB in the first round (trade up to do it for the love of cheese), and every one says.. well he just needs more time and many make excuses for why he is missing the little things like reading defenses and not holding onto the ball and taking 10 yard sacks.

Then the guy we drafted in the 4th, with a total of 13 games played shows what you would expect from a guy you drafted in the 4th round with 13 games under his belt, and the same people are expecting HIM to either play like Unitas or he was a waste.

Does no one see the backwards logic in these two connected trains of thought??

 

[j_y19]

He doesnt have to be Marino, and i dont expect him to be. But I guess Im the only one that see's the disconnect here.

We draft a QB in the first round (trade up to do it for the love of cheese), and every one says.. well he just needs more time and many make excuses for why he is missing the little things like reading defenses and not holding onto the ball and taking 10 yard sacks.

Then the guy we drafted in the 4th, with a total of 13 games played shows what you would expect from a guy you drafted in the 4th round with 13 games under his belt, and the same people are expecting HIM to either play like Unitas or he was a waste.

Does no one see the backwards logic in these two connected trains of thought??

Wow, that's a real stretch, Shark. No one expects KC to play like Unitas. But when the guy give us INTs in the 4th qtr like no other, its reasonable to question if he can be depended upon. You are really hell bent on continuing this argument, to what end, I have no idea. No one of consequence is saying we should trash KC. Everyone is disappointed in his play. Just the same as RG3. No one is saying trash him (maybe except you), everyone has said his performance is a mixed bag and the jury is still out. Here is the difference between the two which you conveniently ignore. RG3 has had success in this league. KC has not. Robert can play in this league if he can stay healthy and we can implement an offense that plays to his strengths. KC is playing in an offense right now that is tailored to his strengths and he is failing. It baffles me why you continue this.

 

[Sharkinva]

Wow, that's a real stretch, Shark. No one expects KC to play like Unitas. But when the guy give us INTs in the 4th qtr like no other, its reasonable to question if he can be depended upon. You are really hell bent on continuing this argument, to what end, I have no idea. No one of consequence is saying we should trash KC. Everyone is disappointed in his play. Just the same as RG3. No one is saying trash him (maybe except you), everyone has said his performance is a mixed bag and the jury is still out. Here is the difference between the two which you conveniently ignore. RG3 has had success in this league. KC has not. Robert can play in this league if he can stay healthy and we can implement an offense that plays to his strengths. KC is playing in an offense right now that is tailored to his strengths and he is failing. It baffles me why you continue this.

OK J-Y .. I dont like to play the lets compare him to the greats game. because usually its insulting to the greats, and its a game designed to make one feel better about there own under performing player at the time. But Like no other is a rather extreme exaggeration. But at the risk of the shit storm I know I am going to insight... here you go.


All these guys were TRUE pocket passers. Note the striking coincidence that all also had MORE INTs than TDs early on in their respective careers.

Troy Aikman: Career Stats at NFL.com

Drew Bledsoe: Career Stats at NFL.com

Terry Bradshaw: Career Stats at NFL.com


Ben Roethlisberger: Career Stats at NFL.com

Peyton Manning: Career Stats at NFL.com

Eli Manning: Career Stats at NFL.com


Thats Six of the best to play the position in just our life times. ALL considered franchise QB's and ALL were turn over machines early in their careers. Hell the only one to play on a winning squad as a rookie was Ben I believe. And again, this is not to prove Kirk will become a franchise QB. Its not to say He will become a hall of famer. It is to say the whole "He turns the ball over like no one ever did that became a good QB is a reach.

 

[Sharkinva]

By the way j_y... as for why i push the point.

1. I dont think Rg3 will ever become a QB that doesnt rely on the read option or the threat of it.

2. With what the team gave up for Griffin, and the rabid manlove a large portion of the fan base has for him, Cousins was going to have a short leash no matter what. Kirk would have had to have gone 4-1 over the last stretch for the FO, and more importantly the fan base to even consider him as the true starter. And i will go out there and say, Kirk could have won the last five games in convincing fashion and the man love for RG3 is so high with some that all they would say is... we going to get a 1st rounder for Kirk now.

 

[gkekoa]

There are huge differences in RG3 and KC. KC cannot play from behind on this team for sure. Almost all his turnovers have come when playing from behind. It isn't an excuse because I am not declaring him the answer...I am making an observation.


RG3 has the ability to make the OL better but only because of his legs. While he can make the OL better, he can also make it look worse because he holds the ball too long.


We don't know if either is the answer...that is the horrible part...at this point...neither look the part.

 

[j_y19]

OK J-Y .. I dont like to play the lets compare him to the greats game. because usually its insulting to the greats, and its a game designed to make one feel better about there own under performing player at the time. But Like no other is a rather extreme exaggeration. But at the risk of the shit storm I know I am going to insight... here you go.


All these guys were TRUE pocket passers. Note the striking coincidence that all also had MORE INTs than TDs early on in their respective careers.

Troy Aikman: Career Stats at NFL.com

Drew Bledsoe: Career Stats at NFL.com

Terry Bradshaw: Career Stats at NFL.com


Ben Roethlisberger: Career Stats at NFL.com

Peyton Manning: Career Stats at NFL.com

Eli Manning: Career Stats at NFL.com


Thats Six of the best to play the position in just our life times. ALL considered franchise QB's and ALL were turn over machines early in their careers. Hell the only one to play on a winning squad as a rookie was Ben I believe. And again, this is not to prove Kirk will become a franchise QB. Its not to say He will become a hall of famer. It is to say the whole "He turns the ball over like no one ever did that became a good QB is a reach.

I'm aware that there are some that have started poorly and turned it around to go on and be great. But there are many more that didn't. You notice I said that its reasonable to question if he can be dependable. Surely you have questioned him yourself. Its also reasonable to question if RG3 can make the transition from a mobile QB to a quasi pocket QB. But there is a difference between reasonably questioning and already determining that either can't grow. You appear to have already concluded that RG3 will be a failure yet you give KC the latitude. So all we can go by is what they have done when given a chance. IF we go by performance stats, RG3 has clearly outperformed KC. Even if we only look at RG3 last year when he started the transition to a more traditional NFL QB, RG3's numbers are better. But the bottom line is neither have produced wins. KC has had 5 games this year and his performance has not been good. SO when Robert is healed, he deserves his job back. Both from a performance perspective and from a futures perspective.

It appears that all most are asking of you is to give RG3 the same latitude that you are asking everyone else to give KC.

 

[Sharkinva]

I'm aware that there are some that have started poorly and turned it around to go on and be great. But there are many more that didn't. You notice I said that its reasonable to question if he can be dependable. Surely you have questioned him yourself. Its also reasonable to question if RG3 can make the transition from a mobile QB to a quasi pocket QB. But there is a difference between reasonably questioning and already determining that either can't grow. You appear to have already concluded that RG3 will be a failure yet you give KC the latitude. So all we can go by is what they have done when given a chance. IF we go by performance stats, RG3 has clearly outperformed KC. Even if we only look at RG3 last year when he started the transition to a more traditional NFL QB, RG3's numbers are better. But the bottom line is neither have produced wins. KC has had 5 games this year and his performance has not been good. SO when Robert is healed, he deserves his job back. Both from a performance perspective and from a futures perspective.

It appears that all most are asking of you is to give RG3 the same latitude that you are asking everyone else to give KC.

So basically what you are saying is.. .dont expect more out of the first round 4 draft pick QB. Give him the same benefit of the doubt you would give to a project player drafted in the 4th round. The higher you draft a guy AND the more it cost you to get him, the more you should expect of him period.

 

[j_y19]

So basically what you are saying is.. .dont expect more out of the first round 4 draft pick QB. Give him the same benefit of the doubt you would give to a project player drafted in the 4th round. The higher you draft a guy AND the more it cost you to get him, the more you should expect of him period.

yup. what everyone is trying to tell you is that at this point draft position or price we paid doesn't matter. its money spent. you need to really let it go.