Done with KC

[Sharkinva]

So next you are going to tell me that this off season is the first time any one has tried to teach him to read defenses and learn to be something other than an option QB. Because after all, the injury last year when he couldnt run the read option also prevented him from learning the BASICs of reading a defense and knowing when the blitz was coming?? Cant be that his head was so far up his own ass that he didnt want to take coaching from the Shanahans and thus wasted a year because he thought he was better than that?? If anything I would have thought he atleast would have figured out how to see a blitz coming and throw to his hot read.

 

[skinsdad62]

So next you are going to tell me that this off season is the first time any one has tried to teach him to read defenses and learn to be something other than an option QB. Because after all, the injury last year when he couldnt run the read option also prevented him from learning the BASICs of reading a defense and knowing when the blitz was coming?? Cant be that his head was so far up his own ass that he didnt want to take coaching from the Shanahans and thus wasted a year because he thought he was better than that?? If anything I would have thought he atleast would have figured out how to see a blitz coming and throw to his hot read.

well he does know how to read defenses and if you ever watch film you would know why he holds the ball too long he is no different then many running qbs

the read option is a play shark . the skins still ran the read option play last season just a little less by about 30 plays . mainly because KC played the last 3 games

so you are wrong about those facts and yet he still completed 60% of his passes

again his worst year he was still better then most qbs in the nfl

again if you watch film you would see that montgomery missed numerous line calls and you still see it now

i post crap on Rg3 and KC all the time . i post it on the o/line and either you cant comprehend it , dont look at it , or simply just have the hate blinders on

and tell me what has tannehill done ? he is the game manager you detest and yet you want to sell us that you would be doing cheetah flips over his play ?

 

[Sharkinva]

well he does know how to read defenses and if you ever watch film you would know why he holds the ball too long he is no different then many running qbs

really?? Could have fooled me, he looks confused trying to be a pocket passer. And he holds onto the ball too long because he doesnt trust what he sees and has no grasp of a timing based offense.

the read option is a play shark . the skins still ran the read option play last season just a little less by about 30 plays . mainly because KC played the last 3 games

I agree, its a play. But without running that play, RG3 looks average at best. Struggles to put up points until garbage time. And needs that PLAY in order to be effective.

so you are wrong about those facts and yet he still completed 60% of his passes

If he completes 60% of his passes but doesnt put up any points until the game is well out of hand what does that make him?? Oh right... Jason Campbell reincarnated.

again his worst year he was still better then most qbs in the nfl

And yet we ended up 3-10 with him as a starter.

again if you watch film you would see that montgomery missed numerous line calls and you still see it now

i post crap on Rg3 and KC all the time . i post it on the o/line and either you cant comprehend it , dont look at it , or simply just have the hate blinders on

and tell me what has tannehill done ? he is the game manager you detest and yet you want to sell us that you would be doing cheetah flips over his play ?

Im not saying he is the whole problem. But he has alot more to do with it than most people want to admit.

 

[skinsdad62]

really?? Could have fooled me, he looks confused trying to be a pocket passer. And he holds onto the ball too long because he doesnt trust what he sees and has no grasp of a timing based offense.



I agree, its a play. But without running that play, RG3 looks average at best. Struggles to put up points until garbage time. And needs that PLAY in order to be effective.



If he completes 60% of his passes but doesnt put up any points until the game is well out of hand what does that make him?? Oh right... Jason Campbell reincarnated.



And yet we ended up 3-10 with him as a starter.




Im not saying he is the whole problem. But he has alot more to do with it than most people want to admit.

your 1st point is you arent looking at the film . and KC makes the same mistakes on those reads as i have shown in another post

he holds the ball too long because he relies on his legs to get out of trouble . KC relies on pre snaps because he cant out athlete anyone

again not true he was leading us back from deficits our defense or special teams gave up example KC CHIEFS on the losing end and numerous points he put up as a rookie and even in his bad season he showed well vs teams such as the bears

we end up 3-10 as a starter because Rg3 did have problems however the defense and special teams were huge factors

 

[Sharkinva]

your 1st point is you arent looking at the film . and KC makes the same mistakes on those reads as i have shown in another post

he holds the ball too long because he relies on his legs to get out of trouble . KC relies on pre snaps because he cant out athlete anyone

again not true he was leading us back from deficits our defense or special teams gave up example KC CHIEFS on the losing end and numerous points he put up as a rookie and even in his bad season he showed well vs teams such as the bears

we end up 3-10 as a starter because Rg3 did have problems however the defense and special teams were huge factors

I agree 100% defense and special teams played a big part. But once again I expect a franchise QB ( hell the most expensive Franchise QB in history) to be able to over come those issues occasionally. For fuck sake Dallas had historically the 3rd worst defense EVER last year, and Romo was able to pull them to 8-8.

As far as the mistakes on the reads... I agree KC makes mistakes, the difference is KC trusts the system and will play within it. This gets him into trouble some times.

Griffin does not trust the system, he trust his legs more, this leads him to injury, sacks, and a lack of production until the game is usually out of hand.

 

[Sharkinva]

By the way, do you have access to FILM that those of us who are also watching the games dont have?? Please share this secret film that shows RG3 making presnap adjustments, timing passes and effectively reading defenses. Shit like that would be priceless. Fox Mulder would be impressed. Because that film would top an authentic alien autopsy with Obama giving commentary.

 

[j_y19]

I agree 100% defense and special teams played a big part. But once again I expect a franchise QB ( hell the most expensive Franchise QB in history) to be able to over come those issues occasionally. For fuck sake Dallas had historically the 3rd worst defense EVER last year, and Romo was able to pull them to 8-8.

As far as the mistakes on the reads... I agree KC makes mistakes, the difference is KC trusts the system and will play within it. This gets him into trouble some times.

Griffin does not trust the system, he trust his legs more, this leads him to injury, sacks, and a lack of production until the game is usually out of hand.

Shark, everything you say here is accurate with a few comments. First, only you still refer to him as a franchise QB. The rest of us realize that there is work to be done and questions to be answered before that label can be used. Second, your whole argument on this matter supposes that RG3 cannot or will not learn. Learn to read defenses, learn to throw the ball away or dump it off, learn to strategically use his legs, not tactically. The rest of us believe we haven't seen enough yet to make that rash judgement. What we have seen is a freakish physical athlete that can run and throw with the best of them, a dedicated hard worker that will put in the hours, and an intelligent young man that is driven to be the best. However, what we have also seen is a guy that came to us less than ready to be a typical NFL QB, a guy that may be putting the RG3 brand above all else, and a guy that may or may not be the best loved in the locker room or in the coaches office. He comes with some baggage.

What does all this mean? The jury is still out. And that's the point everyone is trying to make to you. We need to find out if he can become a franchise QB. After year 1, we all thought he was a shoe in. Even you. Then the injury and subsequent shit storm so we all now have doubts that need to be addressed. But to declare him, today, a bust is extremely premature.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Nation... it was a loaded question meant to imply that even with all those picks the Rams are not in a better position than us. I will grant that its a debatable point, How ever if even half of all those picks turn out to be good starters, it would take alot to say the redskins got the better end of the bargain. And by alot I mean a Lombardi or two. I know people will shake their heads in denial, but lets face it the last block buster for a trade netted the team that got the QB two Lombardi trophies. So I dont expect it to be out of the realm of reasonable to say if we dont get at least one with Rg3 as our starter, the trade was a failure.

See you want it both ways. Again. If the Rams were 5-1 right now is there any doubt that you would be screaming that we gave them that record with our own Hershell Walker trade? Well that knife cuts both ways. Since they have not improved I can say the trade didn't help them all that much to date because they still suck and probably still don't have a QB. The point has been proven by the Rams that to date (huge qualifier) keeping all those picks is no guarantee that the Redskins would be all that much better right now

And if your bar for success for the Redskins is a ring or 2 then the same standard should be set for the Rams. again you can't have it both ways. Again you are applying a double standard to fit your argument.

 

[skinsdad62]

By the way, do you have access to FILM that those of us who are also watching the games dont have?? Please share this secret film that shows RG3 making presnap adjustments, timing passes and effectively reading defenses. Shit like that would be priceless. Fox Mulder would be impressed. Because that film would top an authentic alien autopsy with Obama giving commentary.

i get the coaches film as does hogheaven

and i have posted the things you have bashed about the qbs we have which you apparently havent bothered to look at

go look at the Rg3 vs KC thread i posted not long ago

it shows exactly what i am saying

 

[j_y19]

Shark, everything you say here is accurate with a few comments. First, only you still refer to him as a franchise QB. The rest of us realize that there is work to be done and questions to be answered before that label can be used. Second, your whole argument on this matter supposes that RG3 cannot or will not learn. Learn to read defenses, learn to throw the ball away or dump it off, learn to strategically use his legs, not tactically. The rest of us believe we haven't seen enough yet to make that rash judgement. What we have seen is a freakish physical athlete that can run and throw with the best of them, a dedicated hard worker that will put in the hours, and an intelligent young man that is driven to be the best. However, what we have also seen is a guy that came to us less than ready to be a typical NFL QB, a guy that may be putting the RG3 brand above all else, and a guy that may or may not be the best loved in the locker room or in the coaches office. He comes with some baggage.

What does all this mean? The jury is still out. And that's the point everyone is trying to make to you. We need to find out if he can become a franchise QB. After year 1, we all thought he was a shoe in. Even you. Then the injury and subsequent shit storm so we all now have doubts that need to be addressed. But to declare him, today, a bust is extremely premature.

Shark, I also have to give you props. You were one of the very few that was against the trade to get RG3, primarily because of the huge cost we paid. Well, it appears that you were right. We did pay too much, in hindsight, if for no other reason than his injury history. So while I disagree with you on the status of RG3 today and giving him more time, I do now agree that we gave up too much for what we have received.

 

[Sharkinva]

Shark, I also have to give you props. You were one of the very few that was against the trade to get RG3, primarily because of the huge cost we paid. Well, it appears that you were right. We did pay too much, in hindsight, if for no other reason than his injury history. So while I disagree with you on the status of RG3 today and giving him more time, I do now agree that we gave up too much for what we have received.

j_y... to be honest. I do believe that the jury is still out. But using legal references here, I have always been more a fan of the U.K. system of justice, where you have to prove your innocence. reasonable doubt is all fine and good. Again IM all about raising the bar, not lowering expectations. We started with the idea that we were giving up a boat load for a franchise QB. Some how we have come to the point where some posters are saying that if RG3 ends up being Phillip Rivers... we did OK. I admit Im a hard ass, but Im NOT ok with that concept. We committed alot to this kid, I expect ALOT from him. Im fine with giving both QBs more time. What Im not fine with is the idea that at this juncture one should be favored over the other. Both are flawed. If Gruden has the balls after this season to simply say, the guy who performs best within the system will be the starter, Im fine with that. But my honest take is, because of where we drafted him, and what we gave up for him...RG3 will be the favored one and we will try and adjust around him. Because of his style of play, I think thats a bad idea.

 

[Sleepy T]

Shark, I also have to give you props. You were one of the very few that was against the trade to get RG3, primarily because of the huge cost we paid. Well, it appears that you were right. We did pay too much, in hindsight, if for no other reason than his injury history. So while I disagree with you on the status of RG3 today and giving him more time, I do now agree that we gave up too much for what we have received.

While the value of a pro bowl QB is priceless, I have to agree. I was on the bandwagon, and even more so after season 1. While my expectations of RG are now tempered, I'm not yet ready to give up on him. I thought he has always been the better option over Cousins, and the last few games have reassured me of that. He simply has a much higher ceiling. Wherever are at now is if he can stay healthy and if the light bulb will ever go on. Still... I hope we never give up that much for a single player again. It's simply not worth the risk. I don't care if every NFL analyst in America thinks they are the second coming of Manning.

And I am with Shark too. A high draft pick means great expectations. RG has not lived up to that the last couple years. That goes along with my philosophy of giving someone 4-6 years yo develop into a starter. That's absolute garbage. At the 3-4 year mark, you are either a pro-bowler, starter, contributor, or you need to take your ass home and find another line of work.

 

[Sharkinva]

While the value of a pro bowl QB is priceless, I have to agree. I was on the bandwagon, and even more so after season 1. While my expectations of RG are now tempered, I'm not yet ready to give up on him. I thought he has always been the better option over Cousins, and the last few games have reassured me of that. He simply has a much higher ceiling. Wherever are at now is if he can stay healthy and if the light bulb will ever go on. Still... I hope we never give up that much for a single player again. It's simply not worth the risk. I don't care if every NFL analyst in America thinks they are the second coming of Manning.

A higher ceiling means little if your style of play means you have little chance of reaching it. I seriously think one more major leg injury will call it a career for Griffin. And because of his style of play, and what actually works best for him, we will likely never be able to rule out that possibility. He simply isnt durable enough to play like Kaep, and his instincts (and possibly ego) wont let him play like Wilson to this point. He either learns to be a more capable pocket passer where the run is an option, not a needed tool... or we are just spinning our wheels... again.

 

[j_y19]

A higher ceiling means little if your style of play means you have little chance of reaching it. I seriously think one more major leg injury will call it a career for Griffin. And because of his style of play, and what actually works best for him, we will likely never be able to rule out that possibility. He simply isnt durable enough to play like Kaep, and his instincts (and possibly ego) wont let him play like Wilson to this point. He either learns to be a more capable pocket passer where the run is an option, not a needed tool... or we are just spinning our wheels... again.

My expectations for RG3 are still high, no matter what we paid for him. But I am also of the belief that very few QBs come into this league NFL ready. RG3 is no exception. If he can avoid injuries (big if) I still believe he has the tools to be a franchise QB. But he is not there yet.

As VT stated, the ceiling for Robert is just so much higher than for Kirk. But there is much to overcome for him to reach that ceiling. Your last few posts have been much more reasonable on the subject and I find myself agreeing with you more time than not. Having spent the last few years debating you, I know when you feel your getting pushed with your back against the wall, you dig in. Must be that marine training. You ain't backing down and, in fact, you raise the ante. I think that's what happened over the last few days in these threads...actually I got a few chuckles from it at times.

 

[skinsdad62]

A higher ceiling means little if your style of play means you have little chance of reaching it. I seriously think one more major leg injury will call it a career for Griffin. And because of his style of play, and what actually works best for him, we will likely never be able to rule out that possibility. He simply isnt durable enough to play like Kaep, and his instincts (and possibly ego) wont let him play like Wilson to this point. He either learns to be a more capable pocket passer where the run is an option, not a needed tool... or we are just spinning our wheels... again.

raising the bar is code for hate

i expect the kid will meet the expectations of his draft position, but it will take time , something you are even remotely are willing to do

eventually steve young and cunningham reigned in their athletism and became more cerebral the same can happen for Rg3

 

[Sharkinva]

raising the bar is code for hate

i expect the kid will meet the expectations of his draft position, but it will take time , something you are even remotely are willing to do

eventually steve young and cunningham reigned in their athletism and became more cerebral the same can happen for Rg3

really dude... tell you what, if you like I will give you direct access to my sons. Raise the bar is a statement they have heard from me since they were in pee wee football. Its just that I expect MORE period.

If he meets the expectations of his draft position and becomes a franchise QB I will be thrilled with it. But the expectations for him do have to be higher based on his draft position AND what we gave up for him. I know he had no control over that part of it, but he still needs to live up to it.

I agree that eventually he can become more cerebral, how ever I dont have faith in him doing that because to the point I have not seen signs of him doing that.

 

[Sleepy T]

really dude... tell you what, if you like I will give you direct access to my sons. Raise the bar is a statement they have heard from me since they were in pee wee football. Its just that I expect MORE period.

If he meets the expectations of his draft position and becomes a franchise QB I will be thrilled with it. But the expectations for him do have to be higher based on his draft position AND what we gave up for him. I know he had no control over that part of it, but he still needs to live up to it.

I agree that eventually he can become more cerebral, how ever I dont have faith in him doing that because to the point I have not seen signs of him doing that.

That can be said for any 1st rounder, and certainly a Top 10 guy, even more so for a skill position such as QB. Once again, it is too early to give up on him, but how long do you give him to turn into the guy you thought he would be??? 5 years, 6.... Sign him up to 30. At some point you have to cut your losses. If he doesn't show something really promising next year, it wouldn't surprise me if Gruden wants to let him walk. Same goes for Cousins. It sucks to be in rebuilding mode all the time, but no sense in wasting more years on a guy who can't stay healthy or just simply can't get it done. Nothing wrong with raising the bar. He will be playing for a big contract soon. Let's see if he can perform at this level. If not, sign a quality FA QB, draft another one at a reasonable draft price, and let's move on.

 

[Sharkinva]

That can be said for any 1st rounder, and certainly a Top 10 guy, even more so for a skill position such as QB. Once again, it is too early to give up on him, but how long do you give him to turn into the guy you thought he would be??? 5 years, 6.... Sign him up to 30. At some point you have to cut your losses. If he doesn't show something really promising next year, it wouldn't surprise me if Gruden wants to let him walk. Same goes for Cousins. It sucks to be in rebuilding mode all the time, but no sense in wasting more years on a guy who can't stay healthy or just simply can't get it done. Nothing wrong with raising the bar. He will be playing for a big contract soon. Let's see if he can perform at this level. If not, sign a quality FA QB, draft another one at a reasonable price, and let's move on.

Sparks... the problem here is, we either have to decide to pick up his 5th year option, or risk losing him. right now he has not shown worthy of the option or a long term deal. But if we sign him long term and he proves to be as fragile as Bradford.. we are fucked. This year was supposed to be the decision year. But we cant make a call one way or another because he hasnt been on the field.

 

[Sleepy T]

Yeah, I would say after what we gave up for him, that 5th year option may be what happens. That's probably what I would do. If he can't stay healthy next year or doesn't show some major strides and improvement, then start over. Some want to talk about being patient. Screw that. After 4 or 5 years you know what you are working with.

I am with you, a long term contract before that option would be brainless. We could be setting ourselves up for a long long disappointment. What would Shark do?? 5th year?? Cut him loose??

 

[Sharkinva]

Yeah, I would say after what we gave up for him, that 5th year option may be what happens. That's probably what I would do. If he can't stay healthy next year or doesn't show some major strides and improvement, then start over. Some want to talk about being patient. Screw that. After 4 or 5 years you know what you are working with.

I am with you, a long term contract before that option would be brainless. We could be setting ourselves up for a long long disappointment. What would Shark do?? 5th year?? Cut him loose??

HOnestly.. .I would have to roll the dice. The 5th year option guarantees him around $15 million. I would need to see that he can stay healthy AND produce before I make that kind of one year commitment. Then if he produces in year four we can either sign him long term or franchise him. But if we take the 5th year option and he gets hurt again next year, we are screwt.

Mind you we have to decide on the 5th year option befoe he even takes a snap in year four. Which is why right now I would say it should be off the table.