Done with KC

[Darrell Green Fan]

DGF.. .as far as the Rams go. They have done some good and bad things. Worst of them has clearly been having no plan B for a fragile QB. And dont get me wrong I was a huge Bradford fan when he came out. In fact i was hoping we would have gotten him and wanted us to make the trade up for him. But with all they got from the trade, its quite possible both teams lost in this deal. How ever if they end up with 3-5 starters out of this, they were the smaller loser. For us to win, RG3 has to get a Lombardi for DC period.

I can go the other way. By acquiring all those picks the Rams have to get a Lombardi period or they have failed. It's the same thing and it's equally ridiculous to set a bar that high for them or for Griffin. And to say the Rams problems have been a failure to put in a decent backup behind Check Down Sammy is questionable at best. They stunk with Bradford, they stink without Bradford. Again if you see them contending for a ring anytime soon with a healthy Bradford you would be the first.

Philip Rivers never won a ring. Andy Reid never did either. There are tons of great players/coaches who didn't win a ring yet they were not failures.

 

[Sharkinva]

yup. what everyone is trying to tell you is that at this point draft position or price we paid doesn't matter. its money spent. you need to really let it go.

j_y... then if what we gave up for him should have no bearing on expectations, then wouldnt it also serve to be true that what we gave up for him should also have no bearing on how we treat him going forward?? I ask this question because every time its mentioned that we might be better off with a guy who actually knows how to read defenses, one of the first comments is... "we gave up so much to get him, how can you even think of giving up on him already??"

So if how much he cost us doesnt matter as far as expectations, it shouldnt be a factor in if he is kept or not right??

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

j_y... then if what we gave up for him should have no bearing on expectations, then wouldnt it also serve to be true that what we gave up for him should also have no bearing on how we treat him going forward?? I ask this question because every time its mentioned that we might be better off with a guy who actually knows how to read defenses, one of the first comments is... "we gave up so much to get him, how can you even think of giving up on him already??"

So if how much he cost us doesnt matter as far as expectations, it shouldnt be a factor in if he is kept or not right??

Fair points. Griffin does get a bigger window. But that is to be expected because everyone should agree by now that the only one of the two that has a chance to be great is wearing #10. Your position that Cousins can be average because he was a 4th so that will be acceptable to you and Griffn has to win a SB or he has been an utter failure is ridiculous.

I don't want an average QB. We've seen a hundred times over that average QBs do not compete for titles year after year. Why you need to be convinced of this is puzzling, it's right there to see. I've posted the list of SB winning QBs. Average QBs won something like 7 out of 49. Your position is simply not backed up by the facts. And that's pretty much why you are alone here in your position. The best way by far to become a consistant contender and eventual champion is to have a great QB. We see it every single year in the playoffs with very few exceptions. Average QBs get in but when the dust settles the teams remaining do not have Alex Smith or Andy Daulton, they have Drew Brees, Tom Brady or
Peyton Manning. Griff has a chance to be one, Cousins does not. It's just that simple.

 

[Sharkinva]

Fair points. Griffin does get a bigger window. But that is to be expected because everyone should agree by now that the only one of the two that has a chance to be great is wearing #10. Your position that Cousins can be average because he was a 4th so that will be acceptable to you and Griffn has to win a SB or he has been an utter failure is ridiculous.

I don't want an average QB. We've seen a hundred times over that average QBs do not compete for titles year after year. Why you need to be convinced of this is puzzling, it's right there to see. I've posted the list of SB winning QBs. Average QBs won something like 7 out of 49. Your position is simply not backed up by the facts. And that's pretty much why you are alone here in your position. The best way by far to become a consistant contender and eventual champion is to have a great QB. We see it every single year in the playoffs with very few exceptions. Average QBs get in but when the dust settles the teams remaining do not have Alex Smith or Andy Daulton, they have Drew Brees, Tom Brady or
Peyton Manning. Griff has a chance to be one, Cousins does not. It's just that simple.

DG.... I guess I just dont see the whole greatness aspect. I see another guy who is very athletic that was supposed to "change the game" in the mold of Vick, Ware and a whole slew of other mobile QBs. But he is fragile, or do you disagree with this?? If you have to hold your breath every time he takes a snap, potential for greatness goes out the window. Bottom line is, you cant be great if you are constantly worried about being injured. Not even going to go into the fact that its year three and he still looks confused when it comes to the simple aspects of reading defenses and not taking un-needed hits. Most of the GREAT multiple super bowl winning QBs you mentioned as I have pointed out, looked more like Cousins in their first few years of play. And yes stats back up THAT fact.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

DG.... I guess I just dont see the whole greatness aspect. I see another guy who is very athletic that was supposed to "change the game" in the mold of Vick, Ware and a whole slew of other mobile QBs. But he is fragile, or do you disagree with this?? If you have to hold your breath every time he takes a snap, potential for greatness goes out the window. Bottom line is, you cant be great if you are constantly worried about being injured. Not even going to go into the fact that its year three and he still looks confused when it comes to the simple aspects of reading defenses and not taking un-needed hits. Most of the GREAT multiple super bowl winning QBs you mentioned as I have pointed out, looked more like Cousins in their first few years of play. And yes stats back up THAT fact.

Again I'm not convinced either on Griffin. And I've agreed with you that he is an injury waiting to happen and that he needs to improve on certain things. But those are things that can be learned if you would just give it a chance instead of closing the book so quickly.

Bottom line is we have 2 QBs, Griffin and Cousins. That's it, that's the list. And only one of the two has a chance to be great seeing as he has already been great in the league. It's a no-brainer that he needs to be in that other offense, at least for now. But again in only his second game as HC Gruden called 2 read options in the very first drive with Griffin. So he obviously is open to what you have been suggesting.

Finally for the 40th time Robert Griffin throws the ball much more accurately than Vick does. It's not even close. So please stop comparing him to Vick, he's a much much better passer.

 

[Sharkinva]

Again I'm not convinced either on Griffin. And I've agreed with you that he is an injury waiting to happen and that he needs to improve on certain things. But those are things that can be learned if you would just give it a chance instead of closing the book so quickly.

Bottom line is we have 2 QBs, Griffin and Cousins. That's it, that's the list. And only one of the two has a chance to be great seeing as he has already been great in the league. It's a no-brainer that he needs to be in that other offense, at least for now. But again in only his second game as HC Gruden called 2 read options in the very first drive with Griffin. So he obviously is open to what you have been suggesting.

Finally for the 40th time Robert Griffin throws the ball much more accurately than Vick does. It's not even close. So please stop comparing him to Vick, he's a much much better passer.

DG....


Couple of things. I will give you that Griffin throws a more accurate ball than Vick. But bottom line is, he is just as much of an injury risk and they both play the same type of game, so it is a much fairer comparison than say Manning or Brady.

Two.... If we need to run the read option in order for Griffin to be effective, then he really isnt an effective QB. His production IS based on a particular play set or look. To me that doesnt spell great, it spells some one who will make us predictable to a degree.

third.... if the offense has to be tweaked to fit his skill sets, it limits our ability to build a solid offense on basic principles.


I will say it again, im willing to admit Kirk might not be the answer. But I feel Griffin isnt either.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

DG....


Couple of things. I will give you that Griffin throws a more accurate ball than Vick. But bottom line is, he is just as much of an injury risk and they both play the same type of game, so it is a much fairer comparison than say Manning or Brady.

Agreed on the injury risk, never disagreed. But again I never compared him to Brady. I'm just saying he is not Vick.

Two.... If we need to run the read option in order for Griffin to be effective, then he really isnt an effective QB. His production IS based on a particular play set or look. To me that doesnt spell great, it spells some one who will make us predictable to a degree.

You may want to ask the fans in Seattle and SF about that.

third.... if the offense has to be tweaked to fit his skill sets, it limits our ability to build a solid offense on basic principles.

You may want to ask the fans of Seattle and SF about that.

I will say it again, im willing to admit Kirk might not be the answer. But I feel Griffin isnt either.

He's the best shot we've got so why not roll the dice while he's still town? We've got 26 more games before his contract is up, what's your rush?

 

[Sharkinva]

[/B]

NO rush, Im just tired of hearing how great he is or will be. Reality is I dont think he is or will be. To me getting him was a mistake. And the more adjustments we have to make to try and make it work with him, the further away we get from a competent team in my opinion.

 

[Lonewate44]

OK J-Y .. I dont like to play the lets compare him to the greats game. because usually its insulting to the greats, and its a game designed to make one feel better about there own under performing player at the time. But Like no other is a rather extreme exaggeration. But at the risk of the shit storm I know I am going to insight... here you go.


All these guys were TRUE pocket passers. Note the striking coincidence that all also had MORE INTs than TDs early on in their respective careers.

Troy Aikman: Career Stats at NFL.com

Drew Bledsoe: Career Stats at NFL.com

Terry Bradshaw: Career Stats at NFL.com


Ben Roethlisberger: Career Stats at NFL.com

Peyton Manning: Career Stats at NFL.com

Eli Manning: Career Stats at NFL.com


Thats Six of the best to play the position in just our life times. ALL considered franchise QB's and ALL were turn over machines early in their careers. Hell the only one to play on a winning squad as a rookie was Ben I believe. And again, this is not to prove Kirk will become a franchise QB. Its not to say He will become a hall of famer. It is to say the whole "He turns the ball over like no one ever did that became a good QB is a reach.

Well comparing KC to 3 #1 overall picks....2 other first round picks, and the first player taken in the 2nd round.......Seems a little unfair to KC......lets see how he compares to those QB drafted in the 4th or later.......Brady and who else??????

When I say seems unfair to KC.....was more or less saying......seems like and unfair list to compare him to......This is a WEAK argument on your part!!!!

 

[Sharkinva]

Well comparing KC to 3 #1 overall picks....2 other first round picks, and the first player taken in the 2nd round.......Seems a little unfair to KC......lets see how he compares to those QB drafted in the 4th or later.......Brady and who else??????

When I say seems unfair to KC.....was more or less saying......seems like and unfair list to compare him to......This is a WEAK argument on your part!!!!

If we compare him to QBs taken in the 4th round or later that eventually became capable starters, that would be Brady and Romo.


But I see people wanting to compare to the greats, so I pulled a list of the greats. IM all for holding them both to the same standard. But I think its selective logic to say that a QB who doesnt throw picks, but also doesnt score points until the game is out of hand is some how vastly superior to one who actually has us in the game for most of it even if he does eventually make a mistake where we lose the game. Or maybe im the only one who gets tired of seeing us not get rolling on offense until we are down by 20 points only to lose a "close" game.

 

[j_y19]

j_y... then if what we gave up for him should have no bearing on expectations, then wouldnt it also serve to be true that what we gave up for him should also have no bearing on how we treat him going forward?? I ask this question because every time its mentioned that we might be better off with a guy who actually knows how to read defenses, one of the first comments is... "we gave up so much to get him, how can you even think of giving up on him already??"

So if how much he cost us doesnt matter as far as expectations, it shouldnt be a factor in if he is kept or not right??

Correct.

 

[Sharkinva]

Look guys, I have been ask, hounded and badgered in some cases to accept RG3 completely mostly because... well because he is our QB, So I should change my opinion because of that.



BUt let me ask honestly... if he were NOT on the Redskins would you still be so convinced of his eventually get it?? I look at the player as if he werent on our roster how would I feel about him.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Look guys, I have been ask, hounded and badgered in some cases to accept RG3 completely mostly because... well because he is our QB, So I should change my opinion because of that.



BUt let me ask honestly... if he were NOT on the Redskins would you still be so convinced of his eventually get it?? I look at the player as if he werent on our roster how would I feel about him.

Shark: the only reason you have been "hounded and badgered" so much is because you have been asking for it with such a hard line stance. As I said I've been posting for 15 years virtually every day on dozens of boards and I"ve never seen a fan go after a player on his own team the way you have with Griff. And I hang out on Philly boards. Hell you make those guys look like Gandhi.

And again where are you seeing that anyone is convinced about Griff?. Me thinks you are confusing hope and patience with fans being convinced. I haven't seen anyone here who posting that it's lock that Griffin will be great again. I have seen plenty who have disputed you and your position that it's a done deal, throw away the key, he's a bust. And there's a reason for that, the same reason you are pretty much the only poster here to hold that position.

 

[Sharkinva]

Shark: the only reason you have been "hounded and badgered" so much is because you have been asking for it with such a hard line stance. As I said I've been posting for 15 years virtually every day on dozens of boards and I"ve never seen a fan go after a player on his own team the way you have with Griff. And I hang out on Philly boards. Hell you make those guys look like Gandhi.

And again where are you seeing that anyone is convinced about Griff?. Me thinks you are confusing hope and patience with fans being convinced. I haven't seen anyone here who posting that it's lock that Griffin will be great again. I have seen plenty who have disputed you and your position that it's a done deal, throw away the key, he's a bust. And there's a reason for that, the same reason you are pretty much the only poster here to hold that position.

When he is routinely referred to as a franchise QB, that gives the impression that he is considered a done deal. There is no question that he is a star or at least complete QB when that label is tossed around. You are right, my position is hard line. But again I was against him ever being picked. And I see no reason to change my opinion of a player based on the fact that we drafted him. Thats like saying you didnt like some one but now you should embrace them just because they married your sister.

 

[Redskin Nation]

DGF.. .as far as the Rams go. They have done some good and bad things. Worst of them has clearly been having no plan B for a fragile QB. And dont get me wrong I was a huge Bradford fan when he came out. In fact i was hoping we would have gotten him and wanted us to make the trade up for him. But with all they got from the trade, its quite possible both teams lost in this deal. How ever if they end up with 3-5 starters out of this, they were the smaller loser. For us to win, RG3 has to get a Lombardi for DC period.

The Rams could have had different positional needs than us. Plus, their key decision makers are different. Bottom line, we could have drafted a completely different group of players than who the Rams drafted. It's not really a fair question to ask how the Rams are doing with all our picks..

 

[Sharkinva]

The Rams could have had different positional needs than us. Plus, their key decision makers are different. Bottom line, we could have drafted a completely different group of players than who the Rams drafted. It's not really a fair question to ask how the Rams are doing with all our picks..

Nation... it was a loaded question meant to imply that even with all those picks the Rams are not in a better position than us. I will grant that its a debatable point, How ever if even half of all those picks turn out to be good starters, it would take alot to say the redskins got the better end of the bargain. And by alot I mean a Lombardi or two. I know people will shake their heads in denial, but lets face it the last block buster for a trade netted the team that got the QB two Lombardi trophies. So I dont expect it to be out of the realm of reasonable to say if we dont get at least one with Rg3 as our starter, the trade was a failure.

 

[skinsdad62]

shark you are absolutely hilarious

for years you have been pimping that a franchise qb is what this team needs

and now you want to sell us that you would be perfectly fine with tannehill at qb for us

by game 3 of his rookie year year would have been "done with him" because he is a bus driver

and i call BS on how "everyone is shoving Rg3 down your throat " and arent being fair to KC

that is crap because i have been supportive of KC since he took over frequently saying it is way to early to proclaim anything on him

both qbs are young they need time

 

[Sharkinva]

shark you are absolutely hilarious

for years you have been pimping that a franchise qb is what this team needs

and now you want to sell us that you would be perfectly fine with tannehill at qb for us

by game 3 of his rookie year year would have been "done with him" because he is a bus driver

and i call BS on how "everyone is shoving Rg3 down your throat " and arent being fair to KC

that is crap because i have been supportive of KC since he took over frequently saying it is way to early to proclaim anything on him

both qbs are young they need time

What part of RG3 is NOT a franchise QB in my eyes do you not understand??

Franchise QB... pocket passer. Some one who KNOWs how to read defenses, doesnt hold onto the ball too long and take needless sacks.

Of the QBs available I would have preferred Tannehill.

1. He didnt come with a major injury history.
2. He wouldnt have cost 4 draft picks
and 3 He isnt an extreme injury risk every time he steps onto the field because of his past major injuries.

You and I both know the moment the trade was made I said we were likely screwed.

I agree both Qbs are young and need time. But based on the different skill sets, we cant even begin to put in a single unifying offense. Many want to say Kirk is a turn over machine, its what he was in college, and its what he is now. Then does that make RG3 an option base QB?? Because he has ( whats the word Im looking for) struggled to get the basics of a pocket passer. Or would you say he hasnt looked lost trying to run a traditional offense??

 

[skinsdad62]

What part of RG3 is NOT a franchise QB in my eyes do you not understand??

Franchise QB... pocket passer. Some one who KNOWs how to read defenses, doesnt hold onto the ball too long and take needless sacks.

Of the QBs available I would have preferred Tannehill.

1. He didnt come with a major injury history.
2. He wouldnt have cost 4 draft picks
and 3 He isnt an extreme injury risk every time he steps onto the field because of his past major injuries.

You and I both know the moment the trade was made I said we were likely screwed.

I agree both Qbs are young and need time. But based on the different skill sets, we cant even begin to put in a single unifying offense. Many want to say Kirk is a turn over machine, its what he was in college, and its what he is now. Then does that make RG3 an option base QB?? Because he has ( whats the word Im looking for) struggled to get the basics of a pocket passer. Or would you say he hasnt looked lost trying to run a traditional offense??

russell wilson isnt a franchise qb ? BS he has a superbowl win and he aint a "pocket passer "

keap , should be one as well a superbowl appearance and 2 nfc title games and he isnt a "franchise qb" ?

an athletic qb cant be a franchise qb ? he has to be a pocket passer ?

i will agree at this point Rg3 isnt a franchise qb

and again Rg3 's passing numbers suggest he isnt an option qb and i doubt a game and 1/2 a quarter is enough time to proclaim he isnt a "pocket passer " because when you look at ALL of his film and not selective BS you can see when he gets time he can throw from the pocket

but be that as it may , again i say we should play him like the above 2 mentioned qbs and stop trying to kordell stewart him

 

[Sharkinva]

russell wilson isnt a franchise qb ? BS he has a superbowl win and he aint a "pocket passer "

keap , should be one as well a superbowl appearance and 2 nfc title games and he isnt a "franchise qb" ?

an athletic qb cant be a franchise qb ? he has to be a pocket passer ?

i will agree at this point Rg3 isnt a franchise qb

and again Rg3 's passing numbers suggest he isnt an option qb and i doubt a game and 1/2 a quarter is enough time to proclaim he isnt a "pocket passer " because when you look at ALL of his film and not selective BS you can see when he gets time he can throw from the pocket

but be that as it may , again i say we should play him like the above 2 mentioned qbs and stop trying to kordell stewart him

Wilson and Kaep have been able to do quite a few things that Bob CANT.


1. Stay Healthy.
2. Some semblance of reading defenses
3. Not take needless sacks and hits.


But then again I never said or hinted the other two are not franchise QB. I simply stated that RG3 ISNT one. Dont get mad at me because we went for the hype over substance yet again.