Horny

[nuraman00]

If Hornacek can be as competent of a coach as Cheeks was, then I think it was a solid hire.

That's my baseline.

 

[MHSL82]

While he hasn't been an assistant coach for very long, his name has never come up as one that was sought after by other teams.

And teams have been hiring coaches for years, and many didn't interview him. Teams are hiring. Just this offseason, there have been 5 vacancies filled, with five more to go (Detroit, Philadelphia, Memphis, L.A. Clippers, Milwaukee).

Last year, there were four vacancies.

Among the last 14 vacancies, he's had 2 head coaching interviews? Someone other organizations think is good, would have gotten a few more.

Two before and this one, in two-three years of coaching. Before he came on as a player to work with a few of our players, not as a real coach. Three interviews is pretty damn good for the short time he's been here. That's enough of a sought after for me, for three years. I know there are better coaches, but I don't care about Phoenix. I would say that if he had started earlier, he would have taken Corbin's job. I know you'd want an established or high potential guy, but it would have been between Corbin and Hornacek. Corbin was an assistant longer, so he had that going for him and as mentioned, Hornacek wasn't there in full capacity at the time.

Good. He can go coach on another continent, or another planet.

If I didn't know you, I'd think you needed to lay off on this hiring. I'm not saying that because I know you know your stuff and love the NBA. I understand the "earn it" part, but alas, he can go coach for Phoenix. Not another continent or planet. Whatever reason he was hired wouldn't change my opinion of the hire. I'm happy for him because I don't care who coaches for Phoenix. I did say that I wasn't pulling for him to coach here, just more than Corbin.

I know it's not, but it sounds like it's personal or that you're a fan of the Suns. I know you love the NBA, so maybe just shrug your shoulders? Not all hiring makes sense. I'm glad that a guy I wouldn't mind doing well is coaching. I am NOT expecting him to do well. Don't mean to insult here, just saying that it is a little harsh. I already told you I have no expectations for him and implied I didn't think of him highly enough to want him here. I just don't care about Phoenix and am not as much of an NBA fan as you are.

Who cares if the Suns even sweep the Jazz? The goal isn't to compare oneself to one team, it's to compare oneself to 29 other teams.

A team beating another team even if a regular season series doesn't mean they're better overall, it just means they happened to win the majority of 3 or 4 games.

A 15 win team might sweep another team during the regular season, but at the end of the day, they still only had 15 wins.

It's like being glad a player that's traded away is sent to another conference. The goal is to get better the fastest, or help rebuild the fastest, not place all emphasis on a few regular season games next year. That's why I don't compare the teams involved in trades directly; I compare teams relative to all other teams that are either trying to rebuild or contend, depending on what bucket they fall in.

Suns with Hornacek vs. Jazz doesn't matter unless it's in the playoffs, and if both teams are in the playoffs, then there should be more emphasis on the Jazz outlook rather than who the opposing coach is. Milwaukee with Hornacek vs. Jazz just means 1.5 less regular season games.

Agree, but I was talking about the playoffs, though I can't really expect us both to make it and play each other. I am loyal to the Jazz so that's why I added that part. I don't care about season series, either. I'm sure it's more important in MLB where they play them all together, but I'm not huge in baseball.

I think had Hornacek gone through the D-League, or international teams, or college, there would be a greater indicator of what he could do. Right now, he just looks like a cheap hire by teams trying to keep coaching costs down (Charlotte, Phoenix).

True. If he had won a championship as a coach, even better. I get it. He doesn't have experience. Saying he is not proven is one thing. Another is my approach - I don't care - if any one of those on your list were hired, it would be better. But Phoenix can win or lose. I like that he's getting his opportunity. If he fails, that's his fault for going in without knowing full what to do (though management can have an effect based upon money and stuff).

 

[MHSL82]

Charlotte seems lost. I don't know about this new guy, it just seems like it's not going anywhere, even when they had Larry Brown, etc. You talked about players as coaches, players as owners are no slam dunk either.

 

[nuraman00]

Charlotte seems lost. I don't know about this new guy, it just seems like it's not going anywhere, even when they had Larry Brown, etc. You talked about players as coaches, players as owners are no slam dunk either.

I was disappointed when Charlotte fired both Larry Brown, and Paul Silas. I think they're both good coaches.

Looking at it now, that was the end of the line for both, as they're old and I don't think they can handle the NBA schedule anymore.

I know Brown is coaching college now, but the college schedule is easier physically for someone old. And I think less media attention, unless you're at a very high profile school.

Although, I always remember one statement that Mike Montgomery said after his Warriors stint. He said he wasn't prepared for the media attention @ GSW, especially the negativity.

I think that's an interesting comparison, that a NBA team like GSW is to a high profile school like Stanford. And he felt the negativity of GSW was almost unbearable compared to the attention at Stanford. I know he mostly won at Stanford, and mostly lost at GSW, but from his comments, I think he still would have been burned out by the media demands, even if GSW had been winning.

Going back to Charlotte, I wonder how much Jordan values coaching. His hires, outside of Silas and Brown, have been cheap hires.

One thing I like about this new coach Steve Clifford, is that he was an assistant under Jeff Van Gundy, Stan Van Gundy, and Mike D'Antoni. I think having that kind of exposure to different philosophies is helpful.

 

[nuraman00]

I think given Phoenix's track record the past few years, not only with player signings (Beasley, Warrick), but with coaching, they could have used a more widely-considered good move, whether it was someone proven or not.

There is a time to think outside the box, or try someone different. Maybe if you've plateaued, or if you're just starting to rebuild.

But since many of their moves the past few years have been questioned right when they've made, I thought they could go more traditional for a time being.

One thing I like about the Hornacek deal is that it's 3 years guaranteed, with a 4th year team option. That shows that they believe in him to give him a decent deal. If he was as unwanted as I made him sounded earlier, he would have probably been given (or taken) a 2 year deal. The longer the years guaranteed, then I think the stronger they feel about his potential. To me, coaching hires aren't so much about yearly salary, but years guaranteed. Do they see him as a long-term solution? They possibly do.

 

[nuraman00]

Good. He can go coach on another continent, or another planet.

If I didn't know you, I'd think you needed to lay off on this hiring. I'm not saying that because I know you know your stuff and love the NBA. I understand the "earn it" part, but alas, he can go coach for Phoenix. Not another continent or planet. Whatever reason he was hired wouldn't change my opinion of the hire. I'm happy for him because I don't care who coaches for Phoenix. I did say that I wasn't pulling for him to coach here, just more than Corbin.

I was just trying to be funny, and it came off too strongly. I would have liked him to have head coaching experience elsewhere first, or a longer stint as an assistant. I think coaching a team in another country, for example, is good experience.

I also just think that there were so may coaching options this year, that the Suns should have interviewed more candidates. Made it a more exhaustive search.

They interviewed Bickerstaff, Clifford, Quin Snyder, and Hornacek. I would have liked one sough-after candidate in that list, and if they chose Hornacek over him, then that would speak more to me about how Hornacek came off.

I know, interviewing skills and coaching skills aren't the same, but it's something.

I'm just skeptical of the decision-making of the Suns front office. (And the Nets). I'm sure others have the same concerns about Sacramento or Charlotte or Memphis (with letting Hollins and Gay go) or Toronto.

In a weird way, I'm not skeptical of the Knicks decision-making, but just think that their vision of what is good is not aligned with reality. If that makes sense. ;-)

Back to Hornacek, does anyone have any info on how he interacted with players the past few years? That could shed some light. Did any players mention that they enjoyed working with him, or that they learned a lot, etc.?

 

[MHSL82]

I was just trying to be funny, and it came off too strongly.

In that case, I apologize for responding the way I did. I should have known. I do get a bit defensive sometimes when it comes to prognosticating or when it feels that the criticism of a team's management is directed at the player or coach, who by all accounts, did what he should - take the job. Funny thing is, I don't think I would have reacted if you had said, "I can't believe the Suns management isn't looking for someone more experienced." It was the same thing as you said, as "cheap hire" is pointed at management. It just felt that it was pointed at Hornacek.

I sometimes feel for those in competition, like players or coaches. I feel like, they're trying hard and working hard so they don't deserve criticism for things like experience, etc. Stubbornness, me-first, non-discipline, etc., sure. I perhaps project myself too much in feeling how I would approach a job. As far as I know, Hornacek is approaching it the way I would - enthusiasm, probably some anxiety, and a lot of hard work. Sure, team management people do the same, but I'm not as connected to them empathetically.

 

[nuraman00]

I made a thread a few years ago asking who GM's role models were. If players had role models, did GMs have someone they looked up to, that got them into that business? What other organizational leaders, especially in sports management, did they look up to or learn from?

A long answer someone gave could be summarized as "no".

 

[nuraman00]

Funny thing is, I don't think I would have reacted if you had said, "I can't believe the Suns management isn't looking for someone more experienced." It was the same thing as you said, as "cheap hire" is pointed at management. It just felt that it was pointed at Hornacek.

Yup, I was looking at it from the Suns management point of view. I didn't think they did a thorough job interviewing all types of candidates. I would have liked one high profile (either a good veteran coach or a highly-sought up and coming assistant) to be interviewed. If they chose Hornacek over that candidate too, then that would seem more like the Suns management did a thorough job, and maybe the style / fit of the other coaches weren't as good as what they saw in Hornacek. It could have also been about contract terms if they passed over the other coaches, but it could have just been that they liked Hornacek more too, and I would give all parties a stronger vote of confidence.

But to me, the candidate list that the Suns interviewed was not as impressive, and so I wonder if their management team will improve.

I wonder whether they have a good long term plan, or if they're looking at a short-term hire. They gave Hornacek a 3+1 contract, so that's one sign they think Hornacek could be a good longterm hire, but that's not a good enough reason for me to put faith in their management alone.

I've stated in the past the responsibility I feel O'Connor has had for recent Jazz teams, a little moreso than the coach or players, at this point.

JVG also talked about management's importance, I posted an excerpt in the Around The League thread, #157.

 

[nuraman00]

As for the "planet" joke, there were 2 things to look at:

1. One is the standard exaggeration that happens on message boards. If I say he shot it from the Rocky Mountains, the next person will say he shot it from the ionosphere.

I say "country", then I juxtapose it with "planet" to show the next level of exaggeration.

2. Aliens (and therefore by inference, foreign planets) have been discussed between us lately. For example, those books with about the alien teacher. So that was the other connection I was trying to draw.

 

[MHSL82]

As for the "planet" joke, there were 2 things to look at:

1. One is the standard exaggeration that happens on message boards. If I say he shot it from the Rocky Mountains, the next person will say he shot it from the ionosphere.

I say "country", then I juxtapose it with "planet" to show the next level of exaggeration.

2. Aliens (and therefore by inference, foreign planets) have been discussed between us lately. For example, those books with about the alien teacher. So that was the other connection I was trying to draw.

Yeah, that was my fault how I took what you said. I read that after already feeling it was against Hornacek, despite how I knew it was against management.

I used to "color" EVERY comment I made to be as objective, but now I just say what I think. So now, I will support Hornacek but without expecctations and second to the Jazz (playoffs). Jeremy Lin's team, third. Actually, not his team, just him. Coaches have to win for results. I'm ok being an individual stat fan of Lin's, though I know his line or play is not very good.

 

[nuraman00]

According to the YouTube author, "Malone took exception to the manner in which Byron Scott separated Jazz guard John Crotty and Nets forward Kenyon Martin -- who were involved in a scrum for a loose ball on the floor (1:07-mark) . Malone responded by firmly guiding/pushing Scott back towards the New Jersey bench, resulting in Dick Bavetta, Jerry Sloan and the cavalry rushing in to separate everyone before the situation could escalate further.

The incident appeared to incite Malone - who erupted in the 3rd-qtr. In a 5-min stretch, Malone exploded for 12 points including a:
-facial dunk on Todd McCullough (1:59-mark)
-3pt-play over Keith Van Horn (2:33-mark)
-fastbreak hammer dunk (2:42-mark)
-3pt-play off pick&roll (3:00-mark)"

Malone was defending a teammate. Not sure if it was necessary, just saying it wasn't him defending himself after a coach thinking he did something dirty. With Malone, that could have been the reason. In this case, it wasn't.

Ok, after watching it:

* I wish we could have seen the whole incident, unedited. Instead, this clip only showed the 4-5 seconds of the confrontation. I wanted to see how the entire thing unfolded, even if it involved other players.

But judging from what I saw, I think Malone took more exception than necessary to what was happening.

* This was definitely a memorable game, because of what happened after the confrontation. I'll bet had I seen this game, I would refer to it in game threads, every now and then, when a confrontation happened.

* I wish there were some clips of Malone defending Kenyon Martin. Two of the most physical players in the league, I wanted to see how that would go.

One reason why I liked the Gordan Hayward clip against the Lakers (his 27 points against the Lakers a few years ago), is because not only did it show every Gordan scoring play, including FREE THROWS, but it also showed him defending Bryant. Sure, they only showed clips in which he got a steal on Bryant, but at least that's something. Maybe they could have made the clip even more perfect if they showed plays in which Gordan's help or on-the-ball defense helped directly or indirectly force the Lakers into a missed shot. But overall, it was a fairly thorough clip, and again, I liked that they showed him at the foul line. To me, free throws are part of the game, and I want to get into the moment even more by watching the player make or miss free throws. I wish this Malone clip had FTs and more defensive sequences too.


For completeness sake, which is what I desire, here are all the FT attempts, after the incident:

0:22.2 47-40 K. Malone misses free throw 1 of 2
0:22.2 47-40 Offensive rebound by Team
0:22.2 47-41 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 2 of 2


5:56.0 55-55 +2 K. Malone makes 2-pt shot from 3 ft (assist by Q. Lewis)
5:56.0 55-55 Shooting foul by T. MacCulloch
5:56.0 55-56 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 1 of 1


4:46.0 55-60 +2 K. Malone makes 2-pt shot at rim (assist by J. Stockton)
4:46.0 55-60 Shooting foul by T. MacCulloch
4:46.0 55-60 Utah full timeout
4:46.0 L. Harris enters the game for K. Kittles 55-60
4:46.0 55-61 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 1 of 1


11:17.0 Turnover by A. Williams (lost ball; steal by K. Malone) 66-65
11:14.0 66-65 Shooting foul by A. Williams
11:14.0 66-66 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 1 of 2
11:14.0 66-67 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 2 of 2



Oh, and I see the Nets won the game in overtime.


So Malone went 5/6 from the foul line after the incident.


* There weren't any Malone shovel passes to Stockton. I like Malone bounce passes to Stockton. I kept waiting for one to be shown. I got a little excited at the 5:00 mark when it looked like he'd have an assist, to Stockton, but Malone was used only to reposition the screen, and the ball came back to him.

If I was making my personal highlights clip, with all of my favorite plays, regardless of whether they were from the same game, I'd include more of the last two bullet points. This game could have been perfect if it had sequences with more of these, haha.

 

[nuraman00]

Ahh, some familiar faces that make me feel like home. John Crotty, Keith Van Horn...

Can you point out where in the clip Crotty is? I only watched it once, but didn't remember seeing him.

Thanks.

 

[nuraman00]

Based on the video, Scott has a right to dislike Malone, he was guilty, too. I can't say he's more or less guilty, because I don't know what was said or done, the video doesn't show it. He likely responded to something Scott said, but take for instance, if what Scott had said was the heartless comment and that sparked it, Scott can't be excused from the heartless comment because that would have come before the heat of the confrontation. But just as he can dislike Malone, I have a right to dislike Scott and not want him as our coach. His comments about coat-tail riding came in the press conference.

So you're sure Scott called Malone heartless in the confrontation? I couldn't tell what Scott said, during the confrontation. I couldn't hear anything that was said.

And Scott called Malone a coat tail rider in the press conference after that game?