The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[msgkings322]

Since you want to talk merely your rose-pedaled narrative about MJ in the series, Let's talk about it.

1. They were swept
2. Jordan scored a lot the first two games that series, but he also shot nearly double what most people shoot. Game 1 he shot 36 times for 49 points. His legendary Game 2 (Which was double OT, not in regulation), He shot 41 times for 63 points.
3. And, when it mattered most, Jordan fizzled in game 3 going 8-18 with 19 points.

If you're going to be cut-throat on Lebron, then you have to Cuthtorat on Jordan.
- Nobody cares he was injured, he was back, and he played
- He played an all-time great NBA team, and couldn't even get 1 win.
- He was not the "best player in the game" in 1986. Nobody thinks that but you, and it's very revealing that you claim that.
- It's not a knock against him, it's how Jordan pundits like to view the series. "He scored 63 points".. and leave out in double OT, they were swept, and he had a horrible game live-or-die game.

Jordan scored admirably, elitely. Nobody is saying otherwise. But your attempts to glaze it and narrate it as if you have a lotion bottle in front of an MJ poster is just ridiculous.

No knock. MJ pundits just reference it without acknowledging they were beat handily in the next round.

Dr. J was doing free throw dunks in the ABA in 1976.

Not really a monster stat.

I think there's a point to be made there, the Bulls were great at closing out series on the road.

Not true in 1995-96. He was only the best player on the court for 1 of those games.

I'm not saying not to love it, again.. MJ pundits just seem to try to spread those 6 years onto all of his years. Jordan lost a lot in the playoffs too. Meanwhile, I hate to say it, but if you're going flop out your "6 rings" point as some kind of gold standard, There's a guy named Bill Russell who has 11 of them, the alpha dog on his team.

It does in that he quit twice. I'd imagine you'd skewer Lebron if he took a year off. Again, you go cut-throat on Lebron, don't get all soft and fluffy with Michael. Many players have horrible things happen to them and their families and take few games off and are back on the floor. While I'm sure MJ was devastated by his father's death, I just question why he had to quit the sport if that's the reason, and it obviously wasn't the reason because he went to play baseball. So what was the reason? If you put on your anti-Lebron hat for a second, you'd say he's soft. (not to mention his tantrum of refusing to play on the Dream team if Isiah Thomas was on it.. now that's a sensitive snowflake)

So participating in the NBA suggests he's the GOAT hands down? That's about the dumbest thing I've read.

Based on what most MJ pundits do to Lebron.. saying he was "swept in the finals in 2007" (Losing to an all-time dynasty with a team that would have won 15 games without him), or "Lost to the Warriors in 2015" (without Kyrie and Kevin Love, having Delly and Z as his #2 options)... you can't have it both ways.

If we're going to go cut-throat.. no excuses. Jordan got swept, over and over again. If you're going to jack him, and only him, off for his successes, then we can crush him for his failures. He lost, he was a loser early in his career. He was an explosve volume scorer who couldnt get his team over the hump That was 80's MJ. I'll gladly use Lebron as an example of someone who was better than MJ in his early 5-6 years, and led less teams to greater heights than MJ could, I don't think that can be debated.

You have me blocked, but this is an outstanding post

 

[tlance]

You actually thinking I thought he was already in LA before LeBron is funny as hell. Once again I was stating a fact that he had to have AD to join up cause he couldn’t do it. Keep trying kiddo

He had to have AD join up?

See though…

It was the claim about LeBron joining stacked rosters. That was not what happened.

He joined the Lakers who were a mess.

AD chose to join him and the Lakers gave a lot of young assets to get AD.

There was no joining a stacked team. Not in Cleveland either.

He only joined a stacked team once, and that was to play with his friends.

 

[dtgold88]

You actually thinking I thought he was already in LA before LeBron is funny as hell. Once again I was stating a fact that he had to have AD to join up cause he couldn’t do it. Keep trying kiddo

This was about Lebron joining lesser teams and you said he did not join a lesser Laker team because they had AD.

I don't think you thought AD was there I am certain. It's cool being wrong FYI. Could just say my bad and move on. But I get irrational people cannot admit mistakes.

 

[dtgold88]

Hmmm I see plenty of lefaggots gobbling up leflops nuts. You clearly are one of those little weenie lovers

Yeah so you keep saying. Just enhances your lack of comprehension in addition to you being next level irrational.

 

[dtgold88]

He had to have AD join up?

See though…

It was the claim about LeBron joining stacked rosters. That was not what happened.

He joined the Lakers who were a mess.

AD chose to join him and the Lakers gave a lot of young assets to get AD.

There was no joining a stacked team. Not in Cleveland either.

He only joined a stacked team once, and that was to play with his friends.

Yep

and by his comment he did think AD was there. I claimed Lebron joined a lesser team in LA and he said something like "lesser team with AD?"

Could he be an adult and just say something like "my bad...forgot AD joined after year 1?" Of course not

 

[MAGA2024]

Since you want to talk merely your rose-pedaled narrative about MJ in the series, Let's talk about it.

1. They were swept
2. Jordan scored a lot the first two games that series, but he also shot nearly double what most people shoot. Game 1 he shot 36 times for 49 points. His legendary Game 2 (Which was double OT, not in regulation), He shot 41 times for 63 points.
3. And, when it mattered most, Jordan fizzled in game 3 going 8-18 with 19 points.

If you're going to be cut-throat on Lebron, then you have to Cuthtorat on Jordan.
- Nobody cares he was injured, he was back, and he played
- He played an all-time great NBA team, and couldn't even get 1 win.
- He was not the "best player in the game" in 1986. Nobody thinks that but you, and it's very revealing that you claim that.
- It's not a knock against him, it's how Jordan pundits like to view the series. "He scored 63 points".. and leave out in double OT, they were swept, and he had a horrible game live-or-die game.

Jordan scored admirably, elitely. Nobody is saying otherwise. But your attempts to glaze it and narrate it as if you have a lotion bottle in front of an MJ poster is just ridiculous.

Jordan getting swept that year (playing on a Bulls team that went 21-43 in his absence) is not "the story" any more than LeBron failing to make the Playoffs his first 2 seasons should be a story, unless we're specifically looking at complete body of work with respect to missed Playoff seasons, then LeBron's 4 seasons obviously count JUST AS you LeBron supporters count MJ's 2 seasons with the Wizards against him.

Again, the REAL story here is how second-year Jordan (literally) single-handedly embarrassed the entire Celtics' Dynasty in record-setting fashion, to such a degree that the best player in the NBA at the time (Bird) called him "God". Clearly you weren't around back then to understand the magnitude of Jordan's perfornance in that series EVEN THOUGH the Bulls lost. On the flipside, when the 07 Cavs got swept by the Spurs LeBron himself was absolutely putrid:

22 year old Jordan vs. 86 Celtics: 43.7-PPG on .505%
22 year old James vs. 07 Spurs: 22.0-PPG on .356% (88 Total Points on 90 FGA!!! lol)

THAT is the difference. That's why LeBron is criticized and Jordan isn't. Neither the 07 Cavs nor the 86 Bulls stood a chance to win those series... everyone knows that; however what IS relevant to GOAT discussions is how the individual players performed when they lose.

On that note and to be clear, I consider a player to have "failed" under the following scenarios:

1) Player loses to a team that his team is favored / supposed to beat (ie; by virtue of a higher seed, Vegas odds, etc)
2) Player lays a massive individual egg in a series (obviously it's a double failure if he plays like garbage AND the team loses)

There are some other factors of course; however using just those two (2) criteria alone LeBron has failed in 06, 07, 08, 10, 11, 14, 15, 19, 21, 22 and 24... and that doesn't even include the 09 Cavs, who finished with 66 wins and the #1 Net Rating overall, yet Vegas had them losing in the Semi's or Conference Finals (so by reaching the ECF they actually met expectations that year). Jordan's "failures" using the above criteria? Only 95, 02 and 03... and in 95 it was just a matter of a couple really uncharacteristic turnovers by MJ, no doubt because he just returned to the game toward the end of the regular season and was clearly a bit rusty.

Regardless:

- Jordan: 3 failures in 15 seasons (20%)
- LeBron: 11 failures in 22 seasons (50%)

Again, LeBron is not even close.

((As an aside: I said Jordan established himself as the best player in the game "after" that Celtics series concluded... and that's a fact.))

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Jordan getting swept that year (playing on a Bulls team that went 21-43 in his absence) is not "the story" any more than LeBron failing to make the Playoffs his first 2 seasons should be a story, unless we're specifically looking at complete body of work with respect to missed Playoff seasons, then LeBron's 4 seasons obviously count JUST AS you LeBron supporters count MJ's 2 seasons with the Wizards against him.

We have to be honest (I know, not really in your wheelhouse) about playoff appearances and just using them all as equal.

Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs in these years:
1984-85: 38-44
1985-86: 30-52 (Yes, a 30-52 team was in the NBA playoffs)
1986-87: 40-42

So Jordan had 3 playoff appearances without a winning record.

Let's look at Lebron's first 3 years on the Cavs (Fresh out of High school)
2003-2004: 35-47 (Missed playoffs)
2004-2005: 42-40 (Winning record, missed playoffs)
2005-2006: 50-32 Made the Playoffs.

So you doing something like "Ha! Jordan made 3 playoff appearances in his first 3 years while Lebron only had 1" is retarded. Lebron had more success and made his team better than Jordan did. I know it hurts your feelings because for some reason MJ really oils your gears, but it's just true. Stop being so desperate. Early Lebron>Early Jordan. It's easy,.

Jordan (literally) single-handedly embarrassed the entire Celtics' Dynasty

Yep, by his team getting swept. He sure embarrassed them.

Can we also just stop acting like people don't go off in playoff games? I think you're severely overrating this game. He scored 63 points in 2 Overtimesin a game they lost in a series they were swept. Let's look at far more impressive playoff performances:

1. Elgin Baylor scored 61 points and had 22 rebounds in Game 5 of the NBA Finals (in regulation, not double OT) and the Lakers won the game.
2. Donovan Mitchell scored 57 points, 9 rebounds, and 7 assists in a first round win over Denver in in 2020
3. Jimmy Butler dropped 56 points and 9 rebounds for Miami in the first round of 2023 in a win, and the Heat won the series 4-1 over Milwaukee.
4. Charles Barkley went for 56 points and 14 rebounds for the Suns in 1994 over the Warriors in a win, and in a series the Suns swept the Warriors.
5. Lebron James scores 51 points, 8 boards, 8 assists in Game 1 of the NBA Finals

There's plenty more, but all of those were in regulation. You're treating this game like it's Wilts 100, it's not. It was an amazing game for MJ, but it was amidst his team getting beat and him not being able to overcome teams. Stop being so fluffy to MJ.

22 year old Jordan vs. 86 Celtics: 43.7-PPG on .505%
22 year old James vs. 07 Spurs: 22.0-PPG on .356% (88 Total Points on 90 FGA!!! lol)

LMAO. You're comparing MJ getting swept in the first round to Lebron in the Finals. LMAO. If you don't understand how much you're actually proving my point, I don't know what to say.

On that note and to be clear, I consider a player to have "failed" under the following scenarios:

Yea I don't really care how you have to do mental gymnastics to retroactively create a definition that fits your narrative. It's an entirely subjective term, and I certainly don't care to know your application of it given the amount of MJ's pubic hairs are nestled under your nose. Make up all the definitions of words all you'd like, I'll stick with facts and debate narratives.

((As an aside: I said Jordan established himself as the best player in the game "after" that Celtics series concluded... and that's a fact

1. If the fact is that you claim Jordan was the best player in the NBA after the Celtics game, that can be true.
2. The claim that Jordan was the best player in the league after the Celtics game going into 1986 .. well, you can think it, but I don't think it's a very popular opinion. I've never heard anyone say it, and I've talked to some MJ glazers.

 

[MAGA2024]

No knock. MJ pundits just reference it without acknowledging they were beat handily in the next round.

Dr. J was doing free throw dunks in the ABA in 1976.

Not really a monster stat.

I think there's a point to be made there, the Bulls were great at closing out series on the road.

Not true in 1995-96. He was only the best player on the court for 1 of those games.

I'm not saying not to love it, again.. MJ pundits just seem to try to spread those 6 years onto all of his years. Jordan lost a lot in the playoffs too. Meanwhile, I hate to say it, but if you're going flop out your "6 rings" point as some kind of gold standard, There's a guy named Bill Russell who has 11 of them, the alpha dog on his team.

It does in that he quit twice. I'd imagine you'd skewer Lebron if he took a year off. Again, you go cut-throat on Lebron, don't get all soft and fluffy with Michael. Many players have horrible things happen to them and their families and take few games off and are back on the floor. While I'm sure MJ was devastated by his father's death, I just question why he had to quit the sport if that's the reason, and it obviously wasn't the reason because he went to play baseball. So what was the reason? If you put on your anti-Lebron hat for a second, you'd say he's soft. (not to mention his tantrum of refusing to play on the Dream team if Isiah Thomas was on it.. now that's a sensitive snowflake)

So participating in the NBA suggests he's the GOAT hands down? That's about the dumbest thing I've read.

Based on what most MJ pundits do to Lebron.. saying he was "swept in the finals in 2007" (Losing to an all-time dynasty with a team that would have won 15 games without him), or "Lost to the Warriors in 2015" (without Kyrie and Kevin Love, having Delly and Z as his #2 options)... you can't have it both ways.

If we're going to go cut-throat.. no excuses. Jordan got swept, over and over again. If you're going to jack him, and only him, off for his successes, then we can crush him for his failures. He lost, he was a loser early in his career. He was an explosve volume scorer who couldnt get his team over the hump That was 80's MJ. I'll gladly use Lebron as an example of someone who was better than MJ in his early 5-6 years, and led less teams to greater heights than MJ could, I don't think that can be debated.

Okay... lots to unpack here:

1) "The Shot" in 89 is legendary because it came against the "higher" seeded, heavily-favored, 57-win Cavs team with 3 All Stars and the #2 Defense in the NBA that year... and the Bulls did "not" lose the next round handily. On the contrary they upset another "higher" seeded Knicks team in the Semis before losing to the higher seeded (eventual) Champion Pistons in the ECF, whose ONLY two -2- losses in the entire Playoffs that year came against the Bulls. Hence, you could argue that by Jordan's 5th season his Bulls were already the second-best team in the NBA with Scottie Pippen averaging 14/6/4 as the second-best player on the team.. yet you LeBron fans want to talk about how James led worse teams much further. lololol

2) Dr. J was clearly well in front of the FT line when he elevated AND he ran half the length of the court carrying the ball in his hand (as opposed to Jordan who dribbled the entire length of the court, which is much tougher). But overall, as noted, if this is the best thing you MJ critics have, then you guys have nothing at all.

3) Going almost literally an entire decade withOut losing more than 2 games in a row (regular season, playoffs and Finals included) is "not really a monster stat"? lolol... surely you jest? LOL

4) Jordan was the undisputed best and most valuable player on all 6 of the Bulls' Championship teams, is what I said. You might-could argue Rodman was veeeery close in Value during the 96 Finals (with his work on the boards), but otherwise no one else was close... and again, you can't say the same for LeBron (or any other player who has won 3 or more Championships).

5) Yes Jordan lost in the Playoffs; however he NEVER lost to a team he was favored/expected to beat, and in his Playoffs losses Jordan never laid the sort of monumental "individual" eggs we've seen LeBron lay many times... adding further separation between the two players. Russell??? Yeah he's got 11 rings by virtue of winning "only" 25 total series, while Jordan had to win 24 series just to win 6 rings. So if you want to get deep into things, Jordan's run was just as impressive... except MJ's Bulls never faced SUB .500 opponents in the Finals while Russell's Celtics did so multiple times. Plus Russell was NOT the undisputed best/most valuable player on "all" the Championship teams like Jordan. In fact if Finals MVP was around at the time Russell wins only 5-6 of them. But this is a debate for another day.

6) Again, "retiring" twice has nothing to do with GOAT status. As for why did Jordan "retired" after the 93 season? Well if you want to believe "everyone else" then I guess the answer is up for debate; however if you listen to the man himself, Jordan noted several times (during his press conference at the time) that he retired because he lost the love for the game, as he felt he had nothing left to prove, nothing left to challenge him. In other words all the unprecedented domination and winning got boring. lololol... if only LeBron (or any other player) was "in position" to make those comments after just 10 seasons in the league, eh? Hell LeBron's been around 22 seasons and he STILL couldn't make that statement without the entire NBA world laughing and rolling its eyes.

7) No, merely participating in the NBA does not make Jordan the GOAT. Where did I say that? SMH. What I said is holding Wizards Jordan to any sort of high standard at all is pretty much confirming he's the GOAT considering he joined a 19-win Wizards teams as a 38-year old who hadn't played professional ball in 4 years. Put another way, just like the FT Dunk criticism, if that's all you Jordan critics got then you have nothing.

8) Again... Jordan never lost to a lower seed or to a team he was favored to beat (unlike LeBron, who has done so numerous times) "and" Jordan never laid a monumental individual egg in a series (something LeBron has also done numerous times)... so trying to criticize MJ for losing to the Celtics while he was dropping 43-PPG on 51% shooting is foolish,and intellectually dishonest. On the other hand criticizing LeBron for Scoring 88 points on 90 shots(!!) against the 07 Spurs is absolutely justified IF you're gonna sit there and pretend like he's on Jordan's level. Now if you want to compare James to guys like Havlicek, West, Pippen, etc then some of LeBron's black eyes and failures can be overlooked. But against Jordan though... no chance. Every piece of his game/career needs to be disected to show that he is indeed, not close to Jordan.

9) LeBron's first 5-6 years were better than Jordan's first 5-6 years, and he led "worst" teams faarther than Jordan??? This one doesn't even deserve a retort because it's so incredibly wrong.

 

[MAGA2024]

We have to be honest (I know, not really in your wheelhouse) about playoff appearances and just using them all as equal.

Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs in these years:
1984-85: 38-44
1985-86: 30-52 (Yes, a 30-52 team was in the NBA playoffs)
1986-87: 40-42

So Jordan had 3 playoff appearances without a winning record.

Let's look at Lebron's first 3 years on the Cavs (Fresh out of High school)
2003-2004: 35-47 (Missed playoffs)
2004-2005: 42-40 (Winning record, missed playoffs)
2005-2006: 50-32 Made the Playoffs.

So you doing something like "Ha! Jordan made 3 playoff appearances in his first 3 years while Lebron only had 1" is retarded. Lebron had more success and made his team better than Jordan did. I know it hurts your feelings because for some reason MJ really oils your gears, but it's just true. Stop being so desperate. Early Lebron>Early Jordan. It's easy,.


Yep, by his team getting swept. He sure embarrassed them.

Can we also just stop acting like people don't go off in playoff games? I think you're severely overrating this game. He scored 63 points in 2 Overtimesin a game they lost in a series they were swept. Let's look at far more impressive playoff performances:

1. Elgin Baylor scored 61 points and had 22 rebounds in Game 5 of the NBA Finals (in regulation, not double OT) and the Lakers won the game.
2. Donovan Mitchell scored 57 points, 9 rebounds, and 7 assists in a first round win over Denver in in 2020
3. Jimmy Butler dropped 56 points and 9 rebounds for Miami in the first round of 2023 in a win, and the Heat won the series 4-1 over Milwaukee.
4. Charles Barkley went for 56 points and 14 rebounds for the Suns in 1994 over the Warriors in a win, and in a series the Suns swept the Warriors.
5. Lebron James scores 51 points, 8 boards, 8 assists in Game 1 of the NBA Finals

There's plenty more, but all of those were in regulation. You're treating this game like it's Wilts 100, it's not. It was an amazing game for MJ, but it was amidst his team getting beat and him not being able to overcome teams. Stop being so fluffy to MJ.

LMAO. You're comparing MJ getting swept in the first round to Lebron in the Finals. LMAO. If you don't understand how much you're actually proving my point, I don't know what to say.

Yea I don't really care how you have to do mental gymnastics to retroactively create a definition that fits your narrative. It's an entirely subjective term, and I certainly don't care to know your application of it given the amount of MJ's pubic hairs are nestled under your nose. Make up all the definitions of words all you'd like, I'll stick with facts and debate narratives.

1. If the fact is that you claim Jordan was the best player in the NBA after the Celtics game, that can be true.
2. The claim that Jordan was the best player in the league after the Celtics game going into 1986 .. well, you can think it, but I don't think it's a very popular opinion. I've never heard anyone say it, and I've talked to some MJ glazers.

Rookie Jordan led the Bulls to more Wins than did rookie LeBron. In Jordan's second season the Bulls went 9-9 in games he played, or a 41 win Pace... pretty much right there with LeBron's 42 win second-season except Jordan made the playoffs.

Year 3 the Bulls completely gutted their entire roster (only the immortal Gene Banks and the legendary Dave Corzine were hold-overs from the previous year) and "rookie" Charles Oakley was the second-best player on the team. You wanna credit LeBron for winning 10 more games (in what was a MUCH weaker EC) and then beating a mediocre Wizards team in the first-round (while 3rd year Jordan went up against the Dynasty Celtics), so be it

Year 1 and Year 2 = edge to Jordan. Year 3 = edge to LeBron.

No... "I" am not severely over-rating Jordan's performance against the 86 Celtics. It's already been immortalized in history... and ANYONE who knows what Bird was like as a player knows that for him to flat-out refer to Jordan as "God" means something historic had just happened.

LOL at your implication that a second-year player (with just over 100 games of NBA experience under his belt) completely dismantling a GOAT level team in record-breaking fashion - records that STILL stand today, BTW) is "just another great game".

Also, the fact that you ignore context/perspective with regard to 07 James and 86 Jordan suggests either a) you're not a very good troll, or b) you truly are a LeBron Homer pretending not to be.

At the start of the season Vegas gave the 2007 Cavs the 6th best odds to win the Championship that season... and they finished with the 7th best Net Rating overall... meaning they were a LOT better than you LeBron Homers give them credit for being. Meanwhile the 86 Bulls had the 16th/17th best odds, and they finished with the 21st Net Rating (out of 23 teams in the league at the time) with Jordan missing 64 of those games.

But yeah... go ahead and try to convince us that LeBron's 07 supporting cast was inferior to what Jordan had around him in 86.

SMH

Lastly... I said (3 times now) that that Celtics "series" established Jordan as the best player in the game, and the following season he won the Scoring title (at 37+ PPG) finished 8th in DPOY voting, 1st Team All NBA and #2 in MVP voting... he also led the league in G, Min, PER, Usage Rate, OBPM, BPM and VORP. Who was better?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Okay... lots to unpack here:

1) "The Shot" in 89 is legendary because it came against the "higher" seeded, heavily-favored, 57-win Cavs team with 3 All Stars and the #2 Defense in the NBA that year... and the Bulls did "not" lose the next round handily. On the contrary they upset another "higher" seeded Knicks team in the Semis before losing to the higher seeded (eventual) Champion Pistons in the ECF, whose ONLY two -2- losses in the entire Playoffs that year came against the Bulls. Hence, you could argue that by Jordan's 5th season his Bulls were already the second-best team in the NBA with Scottie Pippen averaging 14/6/4 as the second-best player on the team..

Okay I have to just single this claim out... you already tried to say that MJ was the best player in the league coming into 1986. Let's look at both of those claims.

CLAIM #1: MJ WAS THE BEST PLAYER AFTER THE 85-86 PLAYOFFS
First, Let's look going into these playoffs:
1. Larry Bird MVP: 26 point, 10 boards, 7 assists leading a 67-15 Celtics 2. Magic Johnson: 20 ppg, 7 boards, 11 assists leading a 62-20 Lakers team.
3. Scoring leader was Dominique Wilkins at 30.3 ppg on a 50-32 Hawks team. Dantley and Alex English both averaged 30 ppg.

MJ? On a 30-52 team. Now I'll actually be intellectually honest (foreign to you) and not count the games he didn't play, which wasn't many. He had a very incomplete year playing 18 games, his team going 9-9.
Jordan: 22.7ppg, 4 boards, 3 assists.

So he wasn't even CLOSE to any sort of best player discussion. He was a promising young player, that's it. Then, he gets swept by the Celtics but scores a ton of points. Baiscally pulls an Allen Iverson type series.

Okay... and? While it was an amazing series, Nobody was calling him the best. At all. Just you. And hey, let's look at 1986-87, where Jordan absolutely elevated his game from the previous year to elite status no doubt.
Jordan 37 ppg, 5 boards, 5 assists on a 40-42 Bulls team that snuck into the 8th seed and got swept again. Better options with a better resume would be:
1. Magic Johnson MVP (also won finals MVP) leading a 65-17 team. 24ppg, 6 boards, 12 assists.
2. Larry Bird had a legendary 50/40/90 season (50% FG, 40% 3pt, 90% FT) which was unheard of in the 80's. On a 59-23 win team, Bird averaged 28ppg, 9 boards, and 8 assists.

Jordan was at best #3. The new elite scorer, but on an average team that he couldn't elevate to levels that a Lebron could drag an average team to. Nobody had MJ over Magic or Bird at this time, and the data says there's no way it's remotely true. Just stop man, you're killing yourself here.

CLAIM #2: BY JORDAN'S 5TH YEAR, THE BULLS WERE THE 2ND BEST TEAM IN THE NBA.

Do mean after Jordan's 5th year or going into Jordan's 5th year?

Going into his 5th year we really only have the 87-88 Bulls to look at, so let's look. The bulls went 50-32 and were the #3 seed.
Candidates in the East would also include #1 Celtics (57-25), the #2 Pistons (54-28), and the #4 Hawks who had the same record as the Bulls. (50-32).
Meanwhile, in the West you had #1 LA at 62-20, #2 Denver at 54-28, #3 Dallas at 53-29, and #4 Portland at 53-29.

The Bulls beat the #6 Cavs in the first round and lost to the #2 Pistons 4-1 in the 2nd round. So, the Bulls were nowhere near the best team.

After his 5th year, that includes the 88-89 Season. Let's look at that:
EAST: #1 Detroit 63-19, #2 NYK 52-30, #3 Cleveland 57-25, #4 Atlanta 52-30. #5 Milwaukee 49-33, and #6 Chicago at 47-35.
WEST: #1 LA 57-25, #2 Utah 51-31, #3 Phoenix 55-27 #4 Seattle 47-35

Already a bad look. So far you're tied for the 9th record in the league going into the playoffs.

PLAYOFFS: As you said, the Bulls beat the #3 Cavs 3-2, then beat the #2 NYK 4-2, but lost 4-2 to Detroit (they were up 2-1 but gagged it away I guess).

Here's Teams that were better than them after the playoffs and why:
1. Detroit, because they beat the Bulls 4-2 and made the finals
2. LA Lakers, because they didn't lose 1 game in the entire playoffs. 3-0 over Portland, 4-0 over #4 Seattle, 4-0 over #3 Phoenix, and 4-0 over the 63-19 Bad Boy Pistons.
3. Phoenix, who had a better record in the regular season by 8 games, and also made it to the conference finals like the Bulls. They were swept yes, but they faced arguably one of the top teams in NBA history.

I'd say you could make an argument for #3. That's about it.

I know you posted more, but you made 2 very wrong claims, and I had to address them, dissect them, and basically leave their carcuses on the side of the road.

@dtgold88 and @tlance ..; can you believe this guy?

 

[tlance]

Okay I have to just single this claim out... you already tried to say that MJ was the best player in the league coming into 1986. Let's look at both of those claims.

CLAIM #1: MJ WAS THE BEST PLAYER AFTER THE 85-86 PLAYOFFS
First, Let's look going into these playoffs:
1. Larry Bird MVP: 26 point, 10 boards, 7 assists leading a 67-15 Celtics 2. Magic Johnson: 20 ppg, 7 boards, 11 assists leading a 62-20 Lakers team.
3. Scoring leader was Dominique Wilkins at 30.3 ppg on a 50-32 Hawks team. Dantley and Alex English both averaged 30 ppg.

MJ? On a 30-52 team. Now I'll actually be intellectually honest (foreign to you) and not count the games he didn't play, which wasn't many. He had a very incomplete year playing 18 games, his team going 9-9.
Jordan: 22.7ppg, 4 boards, 3 assists.

So he wasn't even CLOSE to any sort of best player discussion. He was a promising young player, that's it. Then, he gets swept by the Celtics but scores a ton of points. Baiscally pulls an Allen Iverson type series.

Okay... and? While it was an amazing series, Nobody was calling him the best. At all. Just you. And hey, let's look at 1986-87, where Jordan absolutely elevated his game from the previous year to elite status no doubt.
Jordan 37 ppg, 5 boards, 5 assists on a 40-42 Bulls team that snuck into the 8th seed and got swept again. Better options with a better resume would be:
1. Magic Johnson MVP (also won finals MVP) leading a 65-17 team. 24ppg, 6 boards, 12 assists.
2. Larry Bird had a legendary 50/40/90 season (50% FG, 40% 3pt, 90% FT) which was unheard of in the 80's. On a 59-23 win team, Bird averaged 28ppg, 9 boards, and 8 assists.

Jordan was at best #3. The new elite scorer, but on an average team that he couldn't elevate to levels that a Lebron could drag an average team to. Nobody had MJ over Magic or Bird at this time, and the data says there's no way it's remotely true. Just stop man, you're killing yourself here.

CLAIM #2: BY JORDAN'S 5TH YEAR, THE BULLS WERE THE 2ND BEST TEAM IN THE NBA.

Do mean after Jordan's 5th year or going into Jordan's 5th year?

Going into his 5th year we really only have the 87-88 Bulls to look at, so let's look. The bulls went 50-32 and were the #3 seed.
Candidates in the East would also include #1 Celtics (57-25), the #2 Pistons (54-28), and the #4 Hawks who had the same record as the Bulls. (50-32).
Meanwhile, in the West you had #1 LA at 62-20, #2 Denver at 54-28, #3 Dallas at 53-29, and #4 Portland at 53-29.

The Bulls beat the #6 Cavs in the first round and lost to the #2 Pistons 4-1 in the 2nd round. So, the Bulls were nowhere near the best team.

After his 5th year, that includes the 88-89 Season. Let's look at that:
EAST: #1 Detroit 63-19, #2 NYK 52-30, #3 Cleveland 57-25, #4 Atlanta 52-30. #5 Milwaukee 49-33, and #6 Chicago at 47-35.
WEST: #1 LA 57-25, #2 Utah 51-31, #3 Phoenix 55-27 #4 Seattle 47-35

Already a bad look. So far you're tied for the 9th record in the league going into the playoffs.

PLAYOFFS: As you said, the Bulls beat the #3 Cavs 3-2, then beat the #2 NYK 4-2, but lost 4-2 to Detroit (they were up 2-1 but gagged it away I guess).

Here's Teams that were better than them after the playoffs and why:
1. Detroit, because they beat the Bulls 4-2 and made the finals
2. LA Lakers, because they didn't lose 1 game in the entire playoffs. 3-0 over Portland, 4-0 over #4 Seattle, 4-0 over #3 Phoenix, and 4-0 over the 63-19 Bad Boy Pistons.
3. Phoenix, who had a better record in the regular season by 8 games, and also made it to the conference finals like the Bulls. They were swept yes, but they faced arguably one of the top teams in NBA history.

I'd say you could make an argument for #3. That's about it.

I know you posted more, but you made 2 very wrong claims, and I had to address them, dissect them, and basically leave their carcuses on the side of the road.

@dtgold88 and @tlance ..; can you believe this guy?

No, he continues to be incredibly one sided and carry double standards into all of his arguments.

I will say this though, the ‘86 season was the year MJ broke his leg. His minutes were very limited in his return which is why his PPG was the lowest of his Bulls’ career.

However, while it was one of his least efficient shooting seasons, it was his second best in terms of points per minute.

 

[Jordan23]

Yep

and by his comment he did think AD was there. I claimed Lebron joined a lesser team in LA and he said something like "lesser team with AD?"

Could he be an adult and just say something like "my bad...forgot AD joined after year 1?" Of course not

I know AD wasn’t there. Keep babbling though.