The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Black Adam]

Now this is funny.

"Now, don't you feel like a fool"

As a matter of fact I don't. Yer own wurdz.




"can't come to the GOAT fight with a knife when you're trying to argue that he's better than Jordan"

And you said that after I told you I have MJ as the GOAT.

Now I don't want to call you stupid. But you deserve it.

Can't fix stupid, even with duct tape...

 

[DurbanPoison2121]

Instead of gauging greatness from your respective couches, how about simply listening to the multitude of players that played against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron? Guys like Shaq swear there is a difference and put MJ on a pedestal. Even Bird and Magic talk about it when discussing the Dream Team squads. MJ's nickname amongst players was Black Jesus. The only person I feel can come close to being as utterly dominant on BOTH ends of the court is possibly Wilt and I add him because he was dominant in his era that was also unmatched.

 

[tlance]

Instead of gauging greatness from your respective couches, how about simply listening to the multitude of players that played against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron? Guys like Shaq swear there is a difference and put MJ on a pedestal. Even Bird and Magic talk about it when discussing the Dream Team squads. MJ's nickname amongst players was Black Jesus. The only person I feel can come close to being as utterly dominant on BOTH ends of the court is possibly Wilt and I add him because he was dominant in his era that was also unmatched.

Because players are too invested emotionally.

Players objectively assessing their peers is about as common as a parent objectively assessing their own children.

The vast majority of players skew heavy toward their own era.

Also, there are plenty of former and current greats who say LeBron is GOAT.

 

[Jordan23]

Just an FYI

 

[MAGA2024]

Just an FYI

Holy cow I knew the "LeBron makes everyone around him better" narrative was largely overblown, but I didn't realize just how much so... not one single core teammate improved his PPG average while playing alongside LeBron, which is especially shocking considering he's been billed most of his career as a pass-first facilitator (vs. the "selfish ball-hog", heavy volume Scorer Jordan).

That should pretty much put an emphatic end to the debate, not that there really ever was a debate to begin with:

GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic Moments
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
...and now, GOAT level Team Player

No player in NBA history comes close to matching that Total Package of GOAT level dominance, let alone surpasses it.

 

[rmilia1]

Instead of gauging greatness from your respective couches, how about simply listening to the multitude of players that played against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron? Guys like Shaq swear there is a difference and put MJ on a pedestal. Even Bird and Magic talk about it when discussing the Dream Team squads. MJ's nickname amongst players was Black Jesus. The only person I feel can come close to being as utterly dominant on BOTH ends of the court is possibly Wilt and I add him because he was dominant in his era that was also unmatched.

That's actually the last thing you should do

Nearly vwvery player on every sport thinks the guy from their era is the best ever and their sport was it its best during their era.

They're not at all objective nor should you expect them to be

People in general think the guy they grew up watching or who was best when they started watching is the GOAT


If you go to a middle school right now maybe 5% of kids will say MJ is the GOAT ( and that's only because their Dad has told them that ).

If you go to a 20 something hangout maybe 15-20% of people will tell you MJ is the GOAT

But if you go to a place populated by 40-55 year old people like 85% will say MJ

Then go to a place where 75+ year old people are. The number will be back down to press than 30% again

In 20 years the people having this discussion in the public eye won't be picking MJ as the GOAT. At all.

But right now the people having this debate ad nauseum are mostly all in that age group where they're going to pick Jordan. That's really all there is to the debate

 

[broncosmitty]

well done and that #9 is huge in the discussion and one that is often overlooked. OTOH, when Lebron has left teams they often drop off the map completely.

But I'm the same as you....I can make a case for both. Think Lebron has taken a lead with how well he's playing into 40s but no issue with anyone who thinks it's still MJ. Only pushback is on the ones you don't want in this discussion - those who are off the rail MJ lovers and think it's not even a debate.

First round exits don’t build resumes. Not when it’s for GOAT.

Doesn’t take away from what LeBron has been doing the last couple years. His longevity is unmatched. Truly remarkable.

But it’s 25 a night on a first round loser. That isn’t changing what was already laid out.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

That's actually the last thing you should do

Nearly vwvery player on every sport thinks the guy from their era is the best ever and their sport was it its best during their era.

They're not at all objective nor should you expect them to be

People in general think the guy they grew up watching or who was best when they started watching is the GOAT


If you go to a middle school right now maybe 5% of kids will say MJ is the GOAT ( and that's only because their Dad has told them that ).

If you go to a 20 something hangout maybe 15-20% of people will tell you MJ is the GOAT

But if you go to a place populated by 40-55 year old people like 85% will say MJ

Then go to a place where 75+ year old people are. The number will be back down to press than 30% again

In 20 years the people having this discussion in the public eye won't be picking MJ as the GOAT. At all.

But right now the people having this debate ad nauseum are mostly all in that age group where they're going to pick Jordan. That's really all there is to the debate

Babe Ruth last played in a MLB game 90 years ago and is still considered the GOAT of baseball. This poll from a couple years ago shows a significantly higher number of sports fans choosing Jordan over LeBron despite the latter having the benefit of recency bias.

Best athletes of all time according to US sports fans 2023| Statista

A frequent discussion within the world of sport is about which athlete can be considered the Great of All Time, colloquially known as the G.O.A.T..

www.statista.com

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

Holy cow I knew the "LeBron makes everyone around him better" narrative was largely overblown, but I didn't realize just how much so... not one single core teammate improved his PPG average while playing alongside LeBron, which is especially shocking considering he's been billed most of his career as a pass-first facilitator (vs. the "selfish ball-hog", heavy volume Scorer Jordan).

That should pretty much put an emphatic end to the debate, not that there really ever was a debate to begin with:

GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic Moments
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
...and now, GOAT level Team Player

No player in NBA history comes close to matching that Total Package of GOAT level dominance, let alone surpasses it.

Second biggest lie about him aside from him being able to defend 1-5.

 

[Tomhusker]

These bronny fan boy posts are adorable.

 

[dtgold88]

Holy cow I knew the "LeBron makes everyone around him better" narrative was largely overblown, but I didn't realize just how much so... not one single core teammate improved his PPG average while playing alongside LeBron, which is especially shocking considering he's been billed most of his career as a pass-first facilitator (vs. the "selfish ball-hog", heavy volume Scorer Jordan).

That should pretty much put an emphatic end to the debate, not that there really ever was a debate to begin with:

GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic Moments
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
...and now, GOAT level Team Player

No player in NBA history comes close to matching that Total Package of GOAT level dominance, let alone surpasses it.

Wow do you like to make things up (lie), Tommy. Not onesingle core teammate improved his PPG average while playing alongside Lebron? Kyrie's best season pre-Lebron was 20.7 ppg. Raised it to 21.7 first year with Lebron and was over 25 ppg a couple seasons later. Gooden (guy brought in to replace Boozer) went from 11.6 ppg in Orlando to 14.4 here in first season with Lebron (best scoring season of his career)........Mo Williams went from 17.2 ppg to career best 17.8 and all star season with Lebron. Only 3 I checked as why even keep looking?

It's cool you are giddy over MJ and hate Lebron......but is says more about you than anyone that you need to lie to support your agenda.

In you to own you lied and got caught......again?

 

[dtgold88]

Second biggest lie about him aside from him being able to defend 1-5.

the real lie about him was one recently presented by MAGA that you for some reason supported. That no player ever improved his scoring with Lebron.

Not sure if it's worse he made up the lie or you supported it without even checking if it was true.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Bill Russell is most definitely the wrong answer.

Not even top 25

5 MVP’s says otherwise

He’s on the short list of GOAT considerations

 

[Mr. Friscus]

the real lie about him was one recently presented by MAGA that you for some reason supported. That no player ever improved his scoring with Lebron.

Not sure if it's worse he made up the lie or you supported it without even checking if it was true.

I’ve heard some doozy claims by MJ fanatics..

 

[dtgold88]

I’ve heard some doozy claims by MJ fanatics..

I keep saying if going to lie anyway be more creative. Don't make it a lie that is so easy to fact check.

 

[msgkings322]

I’ve heard some doozy claims by MJ fanatics..

There are many in this thread by @MAGA2024

You guys need to battle it out

 

[dtgold88]

There are many in this thread by @MAGA2024

You guys need to battle it out

Friscus better make sure to be ready to make things up as he goes to keep up with MAGA.

 

[msgkings322]

Friscus better make sure to be ready to make things up as he goes to keep up with MAGA.

That's my point, they have very similar posting styles, and similarly ridiculous political takes, so I want to see the battle. Each one completely devalues the others' champion in a dishonest way. Need to see the fight lol.

Friscus has me blocked so you need to get him to engage with MAGA2024

 

[dtgold88]

That's my point, they have very similar posting styles, and similarly ridiculous political takes, so I want to see the battle. Each one completely devalues the others' champion in a dishonest way. Need to see the fight lol.

Friscus has me blocked so you need to get him to engage with MAGA2024

He has seen some of the requests for it and does not seem to be interested. I really don't see him being on MAGA's level as far as over the top....granted never seen his political comments.

 

[Wamu]

These bronny fan boy posts are adorable.

So you tryin' to say anyone that doesn't hate-hate-hate LeBron is a "fan boy"?