The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[rmilia1]

There's this thing called recorded video, it's very handy. Allows people to view events from the past, it can be very helpful when, y'know, you're wanting to see just how great someone might have been at a sport like basetball in the distant past

Sure and there's way more of it from the 90s than the 60s which is why MJ will still be liked at as great

But it's just not going to happen that he remains at the top. Because there's nothing keeping him there that's based on facts

ITs the same reason no one thinks Willie Mays or Jim Brown or Rod Laver etc etc etc are the GOATs anymore

And it's the reason no one puts Wily on the category anymore either

In the late 80s early 90s the debate was Russell vs Wilt with the "new era" claiming Kareem

Wilt didn't stick in that debate long term because he had nothing to keep him there

MJ is Wilt

If you saw him you probably think he's the best you ever saw. But once the people having the debate havent seen you you get left behind because there's nothing people can point to that says you're the greatest

It is what it is. Its not a slight on MJ. Its just the reality of it

In the 80s abd 90s people used to say all the same shit about that era vs the 70s as people say now about this era vs the 90s. Ots how people are. The guys they watched growing up "are the greatest to ever do it"

That's every era. So you need something that makes you stick if you want to be around long term . MJ doesn't have it . Doesn't mean he's not the actual GOAT. Just means he doesn't have the resume to stay in the debate

30 years from now people will still be talking about Russell's 11 rings. What are they going to be talking about for MJ?

 

[trojanfan12]

The funny part is with LeBron, Kareem, MJ etc, none of them called themselves the goat, none of them had to hype themselves and be an arrogant prick like LeBron does. None of them cried and flopped anywhere close to anything like LeBron does. None of them needed “load management”. They wanted to play every minute. They had a killer mentality in them on the court. They were feared. Lebron is literally not scaring anyone cause they laugh at him and how he has tantrums so damn much, hence a big reason ratings are down. Game is soft and full of whining and flopping.

lol

Thanks for proving my point.

It's really not healthy for you to be stuck in the anger phase of your grief process for so long.

 

[Janus]

Sure and there's way more of it from the 90s than the 60s which is why MJ will still be liked at as great

But it's just not going to happen that he remains at the top. Because there's nothing keeping him there that's based on facts

ITs the same reason no one thinks Willie Mays or Jim Brown or Rod Laver etc etc etc are the GOATs anymore

And it's the reason no one puts Wily on the category anymore either

In the late 80s early 90s the debate was Russell vs Wilt with the "new era" claiming Kareem

Wilt didn't stick in that debate long term because he had nothing to keep him there

MJ is Wilt

If you saw him you probably think he's the best you ever saw. But once the people having the debate havent seen you you get left behind because there's nothing people can point to that says you're the greatest

It is what it is. Its not a slight on MJ. Its just the reality of it

In the 80s abd 90s people used to say all the same shit about that era vs the 70s as people say now about this era vs the 90s. Ots how people are. The guys they watched growing up "are the greatest to ever do it"

That's every era. So you need something that makes you stick if you want to be around long term . MJ doesn't have it . Doesn't mean he's not the actual GOAT. Just means he doesn't have the resume to stay in the debate

30 years from now people will still be talking about Russell's 11 rings. What are they going to be talking about for MJ?

I was so privileged to see Wilt play ( I think he's the best IMO ) and see Jordan, James and Kobe. The era's are ends difference..
While watching Hondo, Russell, Wilt and Pistol I couldn't think of anyone replacing the conversation of their greatness but it happened. Along came Magic ( who I think is the best all around player ) and Bird and Jordan. I didn't eliminate my hero's of yester year but added these new greats into the conversation. Then comes Kobe and Shaq and Iverson, The story grows.
I just think you add instead of eliminate people from the discussion.
Your synopsis of greatness and it's relevancy is spot on.

 

[Jordan23]

lol

Thanks for proving my point.

It's really not healthy for you to be stuck in the anger phase of your grief process for so long.

Proving why LeBron isn’t the goat? Sure thing lol

 

[trojanfan12]

Proving why LeBron isn’t the goat? Sure thing lol

We all already know that reading and comprehension isn't really your thing.

No need to keep proving it.

 

[rmilia1]

I was so privileged to see Wilt play ( I think he's the best IMO ) and see Jordan, James and Kobe. The era's are ends difference..
While watching Hondo, Russell, Wilt and Pistol I couldn't think of anyone replacing the conversation of their greatness but it happened. Along came Magic ( who I think is the best all around player ) and Bird and Jordan. I didn't eliminate my hero's of yester year but added these new greats into the conversation. Then comes Kobe and Shaq and Iverson, The story grows.
I just think you add instead of eliminate people from the discussion.
Your synopsis of greatness and it's relevancy is spot on.

My Dad ( 72 ) still thinks Russell is, the GOAT and that the 60s was the best era of hoops ever

Its just how people are

The way dudes born mid 70s and after feel about that era ( 60s ) is going to be exactly the same way dudes born mid 2000s and player feel about the 90s in 25 years


People who think it's "crazy" to include Russell in the GOAT debate because he played 30 years before MJ and the eras were way different hold that opinion while somehow simultaneously thinking the 90s was a better era than now and they don't see any way the next generation won't believe that too.

Which of course is prepostetous. But it's how people are.

You watch a guy like Mad Dog Russo trying to pimp out dudes from the 60s and everyone laughs. "Shut up old man" etc etc

That's going to be the guy in 2050 trying to tell people how great MJ was except that dude won't even have the 11 rings or the avg 50 ppg/score 100 in a game to l gal back on

 

[Jordan23]

We all already know that reading and comprehension isn't really your thing.

No need to keep proving it.

Oh you are angry I’m sure cause I was pretty spot on with my take so maybe your reading and comprehension is bad, it’s ok

 

[Janus]

My Dad ( 72 ) still thinks Russell is, the GOAT and that the 60s was the best era of hoops ever

Its just how people are

The way dudes born mid 70s and after feel about that era ( 60s ) is going to be exactly the same way dudes born mid 2000s and player feel about the 90s in 25 years


People who think it's "crazy" to include Russell in the GOAT debate because he played 30 years before MJ and the eras were way different hold that opinion while somehow simultaneously thinking the 90s was a better era than now and they don't see any way the next generation won't believe that too.

Which of course is prepostetous. But it's how people are.

You watch a guy like Mad Dog Russo trying to pimp out dudes from the 60s and everyone laughs. "Shut up old man" etc etc

That's going to be the guy in 2050 trying to tell people how great MJ was except that dude won't even have the 11 rings or the avg 50 ppg/score 100 in a game to l gal back on

All this is true and spot on . This is why I contest that in order to be considered great you must satisfy the questions, what did you do so special that the game itself had to change because of you? The number 1 reason I say Wilt, Some say Jordan but I know for a fact that the rules were relaxed for him. The NBA needed a face, and they chose him.

The same question applies for say the Olympics, Dick Fosbury changed the high Jump forever, he deserves his credit as one of the greatest Olympians. It's what recourse the sport has to offset your natural ability.

The question, no matter what, remains an opinion and the numbers can be skewed any which way to support that opinion but numbers don't erase ability and impact.

 

[Jiddy]

You can be "astonished" all you want. The main posters are this forum are all serious, die-hard basketball fans...so no, you're not the only one who has read that book.

I said I was the one who brought up the gambling.

Additionally, if you're so convinced about the OP's "real interest" and feel it's not honest...why respond?

Ftr, your own responses speak to your own "real interest" and lack of interest in an "honest, unbiased conversation".

Because he said something so stupid and antagonistic that it deserved to at least be called out (well, before I realized it was most likely disingenuous and then I DID regret responding...and still do...and now I have you to further said regret). Have your last word. I'm done with this thread.

 

[rmilia1]

All this is true and spot on . This is why I contest that in order to be considered great you must satisfy the questions, what did you do so special that the game itself had to change because of you? The number 1 reason I say Wilt, Some say Jordan but I know for a fact that the rules were relaxed for him. The NBA needed a face, and they chose him.

The same question applies for say the Olympics, Dick Fosbury changed the high Jump forever, he deserves his credit as one of the greatest Olympians. It's what recourse the sport has to offset your natural ability.

The question, no matter what, remains an opinion and the numbers can be skewed any which way to support that opinion but numbers don't erase ability and impact.

Absolutely

There are guys who were so good the league had to change the rules to prevent them from dominating ( Wilt and Kareem) and guys who the league changed the rules to help them win because they were so popular it helped the league to do so( MJ is in this group ) and there are also guys who literally changed the way the game was played ( one could argue MJ is in this group as well along with others, most recently Steph )

That's not MJs fault the league helped him btw. He couldn't MAKE the league change how the game was officiated but the fact remains they did so

 

[trojanfan12]

Oh you are angry I’m sure cause I was pretty spot on with my take so maybe your reading and comprehension is bad, it’s ok

lol

If that's what you consider "pretty spot on"...your teachers failed you.

 

[Jordan23]

lol

If that's what you consider "pretty spot on"...your teachers failed you.

What wasn’t true?

 

[tlance]

Yes...Everyone in Chicago that lived it knows about the gambling conspiracy. I actually read the Jordan Rules by Sam Smith (probably the only one on this board). I don't buy it. Jordan wasn't stealth banned. Think how stupid that actually sounds? On a related note, I still to this day believe the guy that was reading excerpts from that book behind the Bulls' bench is possibly the greatest fan troll in history. That was pretty funny. Even the players couldn't help but laugh about it.

Sometimes it's pretty easy to dissect this stuff...Dude reached the top of the mountain...His dad got killed...He stepped back and took on a new beginning, one that honored his dad. Got the itch again because time heals (and because he stunk at baseball) and came back...and reached the top of the mountain again.

Blah blah blah gambling...as if that has any bearing on whether he was the greatest athlete or not...and, even moreso, in response to my actual comment...which was in response to jackass OP claiming "the kitchen got to hot" or some bullsh*t. He's not being sincere with this post. He has an agenda (create content either via botting of smurfing) and flaming fires. It's intellectually dishonest in the worst way....with the projection that it is actually the opposite.

Basically OP:

Haha.

You honestly believe you are the only person here who read Jordan Rules?

I would best most of the regulars here read that book. I know I certainly did.

 

[tlance]

Theres almost no fact based argument to be made that MJ is the GOAT

He didn't have the most rings

He didn't have the most MVPs

He doesn't have the most All NBA nods, all defensive nods or all star nods

He doesn't have the most points, rebounds, assosts, blocks, straps

He doesn't have the most dominant prone


Every "MJ is the GOAT" argument Jones on subjective criteria like "will to win", "clutch", "killer instinct"

Things that are all based on opinion not facts so you can't argue against them because it's not based on anything tangible

Look at MJ vs Kareem ( for example )

Kareem has

Same amount of rings with more troops to the Finals

More

MVPs
All NBA
All defense
All Star

More points
More rebounds
More assists
More blocks

There not a legit argument for MJ over Kareem that is fact nased unless you're only choosing to look at a few specific things and not everything

The entire reason MJ is considered the GOAT is because he came into his prominence at the height of the leagies explosion in popularity ( thanks to Magic and Bird ) and he capitalized on the vacuum that was created when they left. You then add on that list nearly all the people who get paid to discuss this topic are of the age now where they grew up watching MJs entire career and its the perfect storm for him right now


I'll be fascinated to see where this debate is on 25 years ( once those people who call MJ the GOAT aren't in those positions to amplify that thought anymore )

I sincerely doubt he's like at a even a top 3 player in 25 years. His resume just isn't good enough to sustain being in the discussion once people who've never seen him play are the ones discussing it

He's not Bill Russell. Not enough rings

He's not even Wilt dominance wise

Now that is a bad take.

Of course you can’t just look at 1 thing. It is a collection of everything a player accomplishes in their career.

And of course there is a fact based argument for Jordan being GOAT.

 

[tlance]

To remain in the GOAT discussion AFTER the people who saw you play are gone you need tangible facts

Russell has 11 rings so has remained at least on the periphery of the discussion

MJ isn't the best at anything. His GOAT status is solely due to eye test stuff.

Which is fine when the people having the discussion have seen you

Once they haven't seen you the eye test stuff is rendered moot

Bill Russell is not anywhere close to the conversation though.

Can’t use a team accolade from an era when the NBA had 8 teams.

Did the Celtics win all those titles because Russell was the best, most dominant player in the league?

No.

Now, had Wilt won all those titles?

He would be in the conversation.

Since it was the Celtics neither player belongs there.

 

[tlance]

My Dad ( 72 ) still thinks Russell is, the GOAT and that the 60s was the best era of hoops ever

Its just how people are

The way dudes born mid 70s and after feel about that era ( 60s ) is going to be exactly the same way dudes born mid 2000s and player feel about the 90s in 25 years


People who think it's "crazy" to include Russell in the GOAT debate because he played 30 years before MJ and the eras were way different hold that opinion while somehow simultaneously thinking the 90s was a better era than now and they don't see any way the next generation won't believe that too.

Which of course is prepostetous. But it's how people are.

You watch a guy like Mad Dog Russo trying to pimp out dudes from the 60s and everyone laughs. "Shut up old man" etc etc

That's going to be the guy in 2050 trying to tell people how great MJ was except that dude won't even have the 11 rings or the avg 50 ppg/score 100 in a game to l gal back on

This is a very good post.

Humans get better at things over time.

If we are defining eras by the decades, There is no era where players and talent in the league are inferior to the eras before it.

Pretty crazy that people believe that.

 

[tlance]

Absolutely

There are guys who were so good the league had to change the rules to prevent them from dominating ( Wilt and Kareem) and guys who the league changed the rules to help them win because they were so popular it helped the league to do so( MJ is in this group ) and there are also guys who literally changed the way the game was played ( one could argue MJ is in this group as well along with others, most recently Steph )

That's not MJs fault the league helped him btw. He couldn't MAKE the league change how the game was officiated but the fact remains they did so

It is also very funny to me when the MJ stans come in and ridicule LeBron for taking advantage of preferential treatment from officials.

Star treatment has been a thing for many years. It seems to have started with David Stern in the late 80s.

That was the main reason my dad stopped watching NBA about 30 years ago.

 

[rmilia1]

Now that is a bad take.

Of course you can’t just look at 1 thing. It is a collection of everything a player accomplishes in their career.

And of course there is a fact based argument for Jordan being GOAT.

Those 2 comments are diametrically opposed though

Of you look at everything there no argument for MJ without including subjectivity. But of you do that you can argue for anyone really c

You can absolutely make a fact based argument for MJ to be top 10 . That's reasonable. But not number 1. To do that you need to include eye test stuff which is inherently biased

If anyone cares to do a solely fact based argument vs the other all time greats im happy to listen to it

 

[trojanfan12]

Those 2 comments are diametrically opposed though

Of you look at everything there no argument for MJ without including subjectivity. But of you do that you can argue for anyone really c

You can absolutely make a fact based argument for MJ to be top 10 . That's reasonable. But not number 1. To do that you need to include eye test stuff which is inherently biased

If anyone cares to do a solely fact based argument vs the other all time greats im happy to listen to it

That's why I have 3 in my GOAT convo 9 (MJ, Kareem and Lebron)...you can take pretty much anything any one of them has accomplished and at least one of the other 2 will be able to match it or best it.

 

[tlance]

Those 2 comments are diametrically opposed though

Of you look at everything there no argument for MJ without including subjectivity. But of you do that you can argue for anyone really c

You can absolutely make a fact based argument for MJ to be top 10 . That's reasonable. But not number 1. To do that you need to include eye test stuff which is inherently biased

If anyone cares to do a solely fact based argument vs the other all time greats im happy to listen to it

I will make one when I get home from work