The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[rmilia1]

There's this thing called recorded video, it's very handy. Allows people to view events from the past, it can be very helpful when, y'know, you're wanting to see just how great someone might have been at a sport like basetball in the distant past

Sure and there's way more of it from the 90s than the 60s which is why MJ will still be liked at as great

But it's just not going to happen that he remains at the top. Because there's nothing keeping him there that's based on facts

ITs the same reason no one thinks Willie Mays or Jim Brown or Rod Laver etc etc etc are the GOATs anymore

And it's the reason no one puts Wily on the category anymore either

In the late 80s early 90s the debate was Russell vs Wilt with the "new era" claiming Kareem

Wilt didn't stick in that debate long term because he had nothing to keep him there

MJ is Wilt

If you saw him you probably think he's the best you ever saw. But once the people having the debate havent seen you you get left behind because there's nothing people can point to that says you're the greatest

It is what it is. Its not a slight on MJ. Its just the reality of it

In the 80s abd 90s people used to say all the same shit about that era vs the 70s as people say now about this era vs the 90s. Ots how people are. The guys they watched growing up "are the greatest to ever do it"

That's every era. So you need something that makes you stick if you want to be around long term . MJ doesn't have it . Doesn't mean he's not the actual GOAT. Just means he doesn't have the resume to stay in the debate

30 years from now people will still be talking about Russell's 11 rings. What are they going to be talking about for MJ?

 

[trojanfan12]

The funny part is with LeBron, Kareem, MJ etc, none of them called themselves the goat, none of them had to hype themselves and be an arrogant prick like LeBron does. None of them cried and flopped anywhere close to anything like LeBron does. None of them needed “load management”. They wanted to play every minute. They had a killer mentality in them on the court. They were feared. Lebron is literally not scaring anyone cause they laugh at him and how he has tantrums so damn much, hence a big reason ratings are down. Game is soft and full of whining and flopping.

lol

Thanks for proving my point.

It's really not healthy for you to be stuck in the anger phase of your grief process for so long.

 

[Janus]

Sure and there's way more of it from the 90s than the 60s which is why MJ will still be liked at as great

But it's just not going to happen that he remains at the top. Because there's nothing keeping him there that's based on facts

ITs the same reason no one thinks Willie Mays or Jim Brown or Rod Laver etc etc etc are the GOATs anymore

And it's the reason no one puts Wily on the category anymore either

In the late 80s early 90s the debate was Russell vs Wilt with the "new era" claiming Kareem

Wilt didn't stick in that debate long term because he had nothing to keep him there

MJ is Wilt

If you saw him you probably think he's the best you ever saw. But once the people having the debate havent seen you you get left behind because there's nothing people can point to that says you're the greatest

It is what it is. Its not a slight on MJ. Its just the reality of it

In the 80s abd 90s people used to say all the same shit about that era vs the 70s as people say now about this era vs the 90s. Ots how people are. The guys they watched growing up "are the greatest to ever do it"

That's every era. So you need something that makes you stick if you want to be around long term . MJ doesn't have it . Doesn't mean he's not the actual GOAT. Just means he doesn't have the resume to stay in the debate

30 years from now people will still be talking about Russell's 11 rings. What are they going to be talking about for MJ?

I was so privileged to see Wilt play ( I think he's the best IMO ) and see Jordan, James and Kobe. The era's are ends difference..
While watching Hondo, Russell, Wilt and Pistol I couldn't think of anyone replacing the conversation of their greatness but it happened. Along came Magic ( who I think is the best all around player ) and Bird and Jordan. I didn't eliminate my hero's of yester year but added these new greats into the conversation. Then comes Kobe and Shaq and Iverson, The story grows.
I just think you add instead of eliminate people from the discussion.
Your synopsis of greatness and it's relevancy is spot on.

 

[Jordan23]

lol

Thanks for proving my point.

It's really not healthy for you to be stuck in the anger phase of your grief process for so long.

Proving why LeBron isn’t the goat? Sure thing lol

 

[trojanfan12]

Proving why LeBron isn’t the goat? Sure thing lol

We all already know that reading and comprehension isn't really your thing.

No need to keep proving it.

 

[rmilia1]

I was so privileged to see Wilt play ( I think he's the best IMO ) and see Jordan, James and Kobe. The era's are ends difference..
While watching Hondo, Russell, Wilt and Pistol I couldn't think of anyone replacing the conversation of their greatness but it happened. Along came Magic ( who I think is the best all around player ) and Bird and Jordan. I didn't eliminate my hero's of yester year but added these new greats into the conversation. Then comes Kobe and Shaq and Iverson, The story grows.
I just think you add instead of eliminate people from the discussion.
Your synopsis of greatness and it's relevancy is spot on.

My Dad ( 72 ) still thinks Russell is, the GOAT and that the 60s was the best era of hoops ever

Its just how people are

The way dudes born mid 70s and after feel about that era ( 60s ) is going to be exactly the same way dudes born mid 2000s and player feel about the 90s in 25 years


People who think it's "crazy" to include Russell in the GOAT debate because he played 30 years before MJ and the eras were way different hold that opinion while somehow simultaneously thinking the 90s was a better era than now and they don't see any way the next generation won't believe that too.

Which of course is prepostetous. But it's how people are.

You watch a guy like Mad Dog Russo trying to pimp out dudes from the 60s and everyone laughs. "Shut up old man" etc etc

That's going to be the guy in 2050 trying to tell people how great MJ was except that dude won't even have the 11 rings or the avg 50 ppg/score 100 in a game to l gal back on

 

[Jordan23]

We all already know that reading and comprehension isn't really your thing.

No need to keep proving it.

Oh you are angry I’m sure cause I was pretty spot on with my take so maybe your reading and comprehension is bad, it’s ok

 

[Janus]

My Dad ( 72 ) still thinks Russell is, the GOAT and that the 60s was the best era of hoops ever

Its just how people are

The way dudes born mid 70s and after feel about that era ( 60s ) is going to be exactly the same way dudes born mid 2000s and player feel about the 90s in 25 years


People who think it's "crazy" to include Russell in the GOAT debate because he played 30 years before MJ and the eras were way different hold that opinion while somehow simultaneously thinking the 90s was a better era than now and they don't see any way the next generation won't believe that too.

Which of course is prepostetous. But it's how people are.

You watch a guy like Mad Dog Russo trying to pimp out dudes from the 60s and everyone laughs. "Shut up old man" etc etc

That's going to be the guy in 2050 trying to tell people how great MJ was except that dude won't even have the 11 rings or the avg 50 ppg/score 100 in a game to l gal back on

All this is true and spot on . This is why I contest that in order to be considered great you must satisfy the questions, what did you do so special that the game itself had to change because of you? The number 1 reason I say Wilt, Some say Jordan but I know for a fact that the rules were relaxed for him. The NBA needed a face, and they chose him.

The same question applies for say the Olympics, Dick Fosbury changed the high Jump forever, he deserves his credit as one of the greatest Olympians. It's what recourse the sport has to offset your natural ability.

The question, no matter what, remains an opinion and the numbers can be skewed any which way to support that opinion but numbers don't erase ability and impact.

 

[Jiddy]

You can be "astonished" all you want. The main posters are this forum are all serious, die-hard basketball fans...so no, you're not the only one who has read that book.

I said I was the one who brought up the gambling.

Additionally, if you're so convinced about the OP's "real interest" and feel it's not honest...why respond?

Ftr, your own responses speak to your own "real interest" and lack of interest in an "honest, unbiased conversation".

Because he said something so stupid and antagonistic that it deserved to at least be called out (well, before I realized it was most likely disingenuous and then I DID regret responding...and still do...and now I have you to further said regret). Have your last word. I'm done with this thread.

 

[rmilia1]

All this is true and spot on . This is why I contest that in order to be considered great you must satisfy the questions, what did you do so special that the game itself had to change because of you? The number 1 reason I say Wilt, Some say Jordan but I know for a fact that the rules were relaxed for him. The NBA needed a face, and they chose him.

The same question applies for say the Olympics, Dick Fosbury changed the high Jump forever, he deserves his credit as one of the greatest Olympians. It's what recourse the sport has to offset your natural ability.

The question, no matter what, remains an opinion and the numbers can be skewed any which way to support that opinion but numbers don't erase ability and impact.

Absolutely

There are guys who were so good the league had to change the rules to prevent them from dominating ( Wilt and Kareem) and guys who the league changed the rules to help them win because they were so popular it helped the league to do so( MJ is in this group ) and there are also guys who literally changed the way the game was played ( one could argue MJ is in this group as well along with others, most recently Steph )

That's not MJs fault the league helped him btw. He couldn't MAKE the league change how the game was officiated but the fact remains they did so

 

[trojanfan12]

Oh you are angry I’m sure cause I was pretty spot on with my take so maybe your reading and comprehension is bad, it’s ok

lol

If that's what you consider "pretty spot on"...your teachers failed you.

 

[Jordan23]

lol

If that's what you consider "pretty spot on"...your teachers failed you.

What wasn’t true?