POLL Top 10 poll #15: #15 player in history - Runoff 2

LHG · Feb 13, 2025

Cedrique said:
Yeah it's very misleading for Koufax though. He was a reliever earlier in his career so of course that's gonna knock down the average. When he was on his 5 year run he was banging out complete games and threw 40 shutouts, 31 in his last 4 seasons.

Gibson threw in relief in 77 games (27 in his first three seasons).
Koufax threw in relief in 83 games (31 in his first three seasons).
Martinez threw in relief in 67 games (63 in his first two seasons).

Considering that relievers were generally used longer in games in Gibson and Koufax's days, I would guess that their relief appearances may help their IP per game more than Martinez, but I have not looked that deeply into their appearances.

LHG · Feb 13, 2025

calsnowskier said:
As is 35 innings in a season.

That is what happens when starting rotations get lengthened from 4 to 5.

Cedrique · Feb 13, 2025

LHG said:
Gibson threw in relief in 77 games (27 in his first three seasons).
Koufax threw in relief in 83 games (31 in his first three seasons).
Martinez threw in relief in 67 games (63 in his first two seasons).

Considering that relievers were generally used longer in games in Gibson and Koufax's days, I would guess that their relief appearances may help their IP per game more than Martinez, but I have not looked that deeply into their appearances.

Yeah I don't know, percentage wise it probably still hurts Koufax since his career was so short. But in the 5 years that even puts Koufax in this conversation, he was going into games looking to complete them.

calsnowskier · Feb 13, 2025

LHG said:
That is what happens when starting rotations get lengthened from 4 to 5.

Sure. But Martinez was a lower-end innings eater even when compared to his contemporaries. There is no painting that turd.

LHG · Feb 13, 2025

calsnowskier said:
Sure. But Martinez was a lower-end innings eater even when compared to his contemporaries. There is no painting that turd.

I don't get this statement at all. Koufax started a total of 314 games and threw another 83 in relief across 12 seasons. His average IP per game is 6.
Martinez started a total of 409 games and threw another 67 in relief across 18 seasons. His average IP per game is also 6.
Koufax' total IP in his career is due to the fact that teams only used 4 starters per season. That is why he got more IP per year.

chappee11 · Feb 13, 2025

jon2tanman said:
Top 100 MLB players of all time

Here is another top 100 list. I love checking these out, even though this one seems all over the place.

Nice to see someone else who has Pedro over Clemens. Love it.

LHG · Feb 13, 2025

Cedrique said:
Yeah I don't know, percentage wise it probably still hurts Koufax since his career was so short. But in the 5 years that even puts Koufax in this conversation, he was going into games looking to complete them.

Average per season and average per game would make the length of career irrelevant.

chappee11 · Feb 13, 2025

calsnowskier said:
This great info, but as I said before, it practically ignores IP. And that is where Pedro gets DECIMATED by the competition. He was a glorified swing man (gross overstatement, but there is a kernel of truth to it).

That’s nonsense. Pedro might have been the original “pitch count” guy. Even back in 2003 they didn’t like him over 100 pitches. Not sure you can fault him for that.

Cedrique · Feb 13, 2025

LHG said:
Average per season and average per game would make the length of career irrelevant.

A nuclear bomb would make all of this irrelevant.

JK, I agree. I just remember a baseball player saying that quote about the nuclear bomb and it cracked me up. I forget who it was. I think maybe a Padres reliever from the 80's or something.

calsnowskier · Feb 13, 2025

LHG said:
I don't get this statement at all. Koufax started a total of 314 games and threw another 83 in relief across 12 seasons. His average IP per game is 6.
Martinez started a total of 409 games and threw another 67 in relief across 18 seasons. His average IP per game is also 6.
Koufax' total IP in his career is due to the fact that teams only used 4 starters per season. That is why he got more IP per year.

I am not stumping for Koufax. I have never been a Koufax fan.

I am just “attacking” Martinez.

I believe the current tier for pitchers include Johnson, Maddux, Martinez and Young (maybe Mathewson as well). Imho, any conversation right now about other pitchers is a distraction.

Cedrique · Feb 13, 2025

Cedrique said:
A nuclear bomb would make all of this irrelevant.

JK, I agree. I just remember a baseball player saying that quote about the nuclear bomb and it cracked me up. I forget who it was. I think maybe a Padres reliever from the 80's or something.

Damn it is going to kill me if I can't remember the guy's name. I think the actual quote was "a nuclear bomb would render all stats meaningless". If anyone remembers who said it please chime in to keep me from losing my mind.

calsnowskier · Feb 13, 2025

LHG said:
Average per season and average per game would make the length of career irrelevant.

So if Doc retired after ‘88, he would be in this discussion?

LHG · Feb 13, 2025

calsnowskier said:
I am not stumping for Koufax. I have never been a Koufax fan.

I am just “attacking” Martinez.

I believe the current tier for pitchers include Johnson, Maddux, Martinez and Young (maybe Mathewson as well). Imho, any conversation right now about other pitchers is a distraction.

Generally agree with the tier of pitchers you listed but I think Lefty Grove and Grover Alexander (and maybe Tom Seaver) belong in that group as well.

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129
Grover Alexander	1	0	0	1	4	1	0	1	8
Roger Clemens	3	1	0	3	2	1	2	4	1
Lefty Grove	1	0	3	1	3	2	1	2	0
Randy Johnson	0	3	3	1	0	2	0	3	1
Greg Maddux	2	0	2	1	2	2	1	0	2
Pedro Martinez	5	0	1	0	3	0	2	0	3
Christy Matthewson	2	0	0	0	3	3	0	3	1
Kid Nichols	0	0	0	2	2	1	1	4	2
Tom Seaver	0	1	0	1	1	0	4	2	4
Cy Young	1	1	0	1	1	2	4	3	3

calsnowskier · Feb 13, 2025

chappee11 said:
That’s nonsense. Pedro might have been the original “pitch count” guy. Even back in 2003 they didn’t like him over 100 pitches. Not sure you can fault him for that.

His IP numbers would not be impressive in TODAY’s game. Don’t give me that “it is entirely due to pitch counts” nonsense.

LHG · Feb 13, 2025

calsnowskier said:
So if Doc retired after ‘88, he would be in this discussion?

No, because his career wouldn't even have been as long as Koufax. I assume that we wouldn't even discuss anyone with less than 13 to 14 seasons if Koufax wasn't so dominant in his last 5 seasons. This group tends to disdain accumulators but I think we are also a bit picky on short careers.

msgkings322 · Feb 13, 2025

calsnowskier said:
So if Doc retired after ‘88, he would be in this discussion?

Nope. Only one great year (rookie) and one all time maybe best ever year...after that nothing special

calsnowskier · Feb 13, 2025

LHG said:
Generally agree with the tier of pitchers you listed but I think Lefty Grove and Grover Alexander (and maybe Tom Seaver) belong in that group as well.

Name 200+ 190-199 180-189 170-179 160-169 150-159 140-149 130-139 120-129
Grover Alexander
1
0
0
1
4
1
0
1
8
Roger Clemens
3
1
0
3
2
1
2
4
1
Lefty Grove
1
0
3
1
3
2
1
2
0
Randy Johnson
0
3
3
1
0
2
0
3
1
Greg Maddux
2
0
2
1
2
2
1
0
2
Pedro Martinez
5
0
1
0
3
0
2
0
3
Christy Matthewson
2
0
0
0
3
3
0
3
1
Kid Nichols
0
0
0
2
2
1
1
4
2
Tom Seaver
0
1
0
1
1
0
4
2
4
Cy Young
1
1
0
1
1
2
4
3
3

MAYBE Lefty. Based solely on ERA+. But not the other guys you bring up.

But I don’t like ERA+ buckets AS MUCH as I like OPS+ buckets or WAR7 for hitters.

calsnowskier · Feb 13, 2025

LHG said:
No, because his career wouldn't even have been as long as Koufax. I assume that we wouldn't even discuss anyone with less than 13 to 14 seasons if Koufax wasn't so dominant in his last 5 seasons. This group tends to disdain accumulators but I think we are also a bit picky on short careers.

Imho, a player needs BOTH to be a GREAT. Timmeh, who you and I would both agree was amazing, does not belong in this discussion because 3 years does not a great career make.

MilkSpiller22 · Feb 13, 2025

calsnowskier said:
Imho, a player needs BOTH to be a GREAT. Timmeh, who you and I would both agree was amazing, does not belong in this discussion because 3 years does not a great career make.

no... short peak doesnt make you an all time great.. but it should beat out the consistent, but never great guys...

like i would rank Santana higher than Mussina...

MilkSpiller22 · Feb 13, 2025

calsnowskier said:
Imho, a player needs BOTH to be a GREAT. Timmeh, who you and I would both agree was amazing, does not belong in this discussion because 3 years does not a great career make.

problem with lincecum... although he was great for a short period... those great seasons were not all time great seasons... not even close... he was just the best pitcher, in weak pitcher seasons...

POLL Top 10 poll #15: #15 player in history - Runoff 2

Who is the #15 player in baseball history?

Roger Clemens

Ken Griffey Jr

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

Well-Known Member

Sarcastic F-wad

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

Esteemed Colleague

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

Esteemed Colleague

Well-Known Member

Sarcastic F-wad

Well-Known Member

Sarcastic F-wad

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

Sarcastic F-wad

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

I'm just here to troll everyone

Sarcastic F-wad

Sarcastic F-wad

Gorilla

Gorilla

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