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POLL Top 10 poll #15: #15 player in history - Runoff 2
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Cedrique
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Yeah Juan did rack up some ribbies
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calsnowskier
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MVP is not just a numbers award. There needs to be a narrative attached as well. And often, that narrative takes hold during the season, and it influences all the voters.
By the NUMBERS, the ‘96 MVP race probably should have been between McGwire, Griffey and ARod. But what was the narrative? I would guess that the fact that the Rangers beat out the Mariners and A’s for the AL West title, and that had a lot to do with JuanGon getting the nod (best player on best team).
in “98, it looks like it was between Griffey, Belle, ARod and Juan. But by voting, it came down to Juan, Nomaw and Jedeh. By batting stats, there is little argument against “the artist formerly known as Joey.”
jon2tanman
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Top 100 MLB players of all time
Here is another top 100 list. I love checking these out, even though this one seems all over the place.
Here is another top 100 list. I love checking these out, even though this one seems all over the place.
msgkings322
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OK now this one might be the tie you have to break...and momentous considering the matchup
What time would you cast your vote?
@calsnowskier
What time would you cast your vote?
@calsnowskier
DHoey
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Interesting where Griffey lands in that list.
DHoey
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Jeter at 28 and Mariano at 31......goodnight.
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As much as I love Pedro, #11 is a bit high for him and him ahead of Clemens is something. Koufax is too high. Rose is way too high and him ahead of the likes of Morgan/Speaker/Foxx is hilarious. Dave Winfield is not a top 100 player, nor are David Ortiz or Vlad. I could go on.
MilkSpiller22
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koufax is polarizing though... he may have had only 5 GREAT seasons... but it was all consecutive, and his dominance was also through the WS...
he is similar to Gehrig, where he gets a big WS boost because they are amongst the best ever...
i am not sure how i rank him yet... as i have not been stumping him yet... but i can definitely see him being in the bottom half of the top 10 pitchers of all time... i can definitely make the argument...
navamind
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My problem with Koufax is while his peak is great, it's only 6 years and he didn't do a whole lot outside of that. Obviously that's not his fault, but still have to look at how his career actually played out. He's like the Kiner of pitchers
MilkSpiller22
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no, i definitely agree... lots of all time greats with longevity have more all time great seasons... and Koufax even pitched during a bit of a dead ball era, as you can see even with his 5 great seasons there were comparable pitchers during the same time...
but he definitely gets perception bonuses for ending his career on top, and for having all his greatness in consecutive seasons... and post seasons in that window...
now that is only perception... i am sure we will see soon how we really feel about him,... but i still have Seaver, Maddux and Johnson above him, before i will even think about him...
him vs Pedro is more interesting... him vs Gibson is also pretty interesting...
LHG
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Here is how the three stack up in ERA+ seasons:
| Name | 200+ | 190-199 | 180-189 | 170-179 | 160-169 | 150-159 | 140-149 | 130-139 | 120-129 |
| Bob Gibson | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 3 |
| Sandy Koufax | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| Pedro Martinez | 5 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 3 |
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calsnowskier
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This great info, but as I said before, it practically ignores IP. And that is where Pedro gets DECIMATED by the competition. He was a glorified swing man (gross overstatement, but there is a kernel of truth to it).
LHG
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Not sure its that big of a difference. Koufax threw more games per season than Martinez but their average per game is identical. Gibson went deeper on average but is 4 outs more per game that big? Average IP per pitcher:
Gibson - 228.1 IP per season; 7.1 IP per game
Koufax - 193.2 IP per season; 6 IP per game
Martinez - 157 IP per season; 6 IP per game
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calsnowskier
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As is 35 innings in a season.
Cedrique
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Yeah it's very misleading for Koufax though. He was a reliever earlier in his career so of course that's gonna knock down the average. When he was on his 5 year run he was banging out complete games and threw 40 shutouts, 31 in his last 4 seasons.
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calsnowskier
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While Martinez was a starter his entire career.
I don’t mean to be TOO critical of Martinez. I do believe he is on the short list for the top 5 or so SPs of all time. We are having this conversation within the context of these guys all being GOAT level pitchers.
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