NBA OFF TOPIC THREAD

[dtgold88]

No, I am telling the truth.

LeBron made it clear he wasn’t going to commit long term because he didn’t trust Gilbert. He kept up his end.

Once Gilbert refused to acquire PG and Bledsoe and instead opted for future assets, LBJ was gone.

Simple as that for people living in reality.

The fact that LeBron has been willing to sign long term deals in both of the other cities he played should tell you everything you need to know.

Wow are you making no sense here (I get not in you to say so). Gilbert refused to acquire PG BECAUSE Lebron wont commit. Kind of makes it clear no matter what they do Lebron is going, and that's fine. It's Lebron's right to leave. You are not "telling the truth", you are offering your opinion and it is baseless.

you want to say he wont sign because he does not like Gilbert? I don't buy it (not that he does not like Gilbert - he doesn't - but that's why he left) and think he's leaving regardless, but it makes more sense than saying he wont sign unless Gilbert proves he wants to win now, then is shown he wants to win now by acquiring PG and still wont sign.

at that point, you have to try and win now AND plan for the future by acquiring the Brooklyn pick. Do folks here still think they should have dealt the Brooklyn pick for Jordan?

 

[dtgold88]

Did Gilbert refuse to acquire them or did Indiana back out? A lot of rumors, he said, she said but from what I remember correctly Indiana backed out, not sure how that is the Cavs FO fault. I don’t blame Lebron for leaving and never have but I dont get the notion Gilbert refused to make the trade.

I think you are thinking of the deal that involved Love, not Kyrie. And, yes, rumors on that were Indiana backed out. Was a 3 team deal with Love going to Denver. Don't recall what Indiana was getting (or even what we were getting).

 

[dtgold88]

It sounds like Gilbert and George were about to have a conversation, the trade was set in place and Pritchard backed out. Gilbert is a dick but he is willing to make moves and spend money he has proved that over and over and over again.

Not sure...one I knew about (and Griffin once confirmed) was with PG and Bledsoe coming here with Kyrie going to Phoenix. Griffin would not do it without a commitment from Lebron and I don't blame him. Cannot risk losing PG AND Lebron.

Also no disagreement if someone thinks Gilbert is a dick (though many employees seem to like the guy) but the idea he was going to stop spending with a commitment from Lebron is absurd (and, yes, that word fits again). Gilbert spent even when we had no chance to win (on Baron davis contract, for instance).

 

[dtgold88]

Wish he'd buy the Tigers

Indians better be higher on his list.

 

[dtgold88]

again- this makes no sense. LeBron already committed long term when he came back--- and during that period Gilbert spent at a level never before seen in the history of the league.

What you are saying just has no basis in any kind of reality.

He didn't sell you when he said "I am telling the truth"?

 

[dtgold88]

Tribe resigns Cesar Hernandez. Thats a good deal.

Indians def. have a shoe-string budget, but they always manage to somehow put something together. the farm system's depth right now is just crazy--- even though they dont have many true top-top level prospects- Nolan Jones being really the only one (unless you also include McKenzie).

but the depth is just crazy- esp. at SS in the minors where they have Arias from the Clevinger deal, Gimenez from the Lindor deal, Freeman who is right about a top 50 prospect, Rochhio who some people think might be the best out of all of them, and last years 1st round pick Tucker. They have at least 5 very promising young SS.

some will probably get dealt, I think Freeman might move to 2nd eventually.

Hernandez a good signing, for sure.....would be great, though, to make a move that actually improves the team.

 

[dtgold88]

They beat two playoff teams that looked past them, when there was no benefit to their future to win those games. Again, questionable front office leadership IMO. If they had that #1 pick, they would have a much easier time trading for Watson if they wanted (or just drafting Lawrence instead).

While I agree to an extent, players/coaches do not tank. FOs do. other than releasing guys or putting on IR not much the FO can do to get the team to lose. Isn't to say their FO was any good, though.

 

[tlance]

again- this makes no sense. LeBron already committed long term when he came back--- and during that period Gilbert spent at a level never before seen in the history of the league.

What you are saying just has no basis in any kind of reality.

No he didn’t.

He signed a 1 + 1 every year until the Cavs won, then he signed a 2 + 1.

And as soon as he signed for more than a year, Gilbert stopped going all in to win now.

 

[tlance]

Lebron wouldn't agree to sign long term to help complete a win now move because it might stop Gilbert from making win now moves?
seriously?

You also said losing Kyrie was beginning of end, right? If he was so heartbroken over losing him, why not call the young man and see if he can help smooth things over (Lebron said couldn't be bothered).

Many also believe (including Griff) that trade talks that included Kyrie BEFORE he made his request were another main reason Kyrie wanted to be dealt.

No.

LeBron wasn’t going to sign long term period.

Gilbert wouldn’t make the win now moves to keep LeBron unless LeBron signed long term.

Pretty simple really.

1 had to be first and move in good faith. Neither did, so LeBron left.

But yeah, I do believe that had Cleveland still been good enough to win a title after the Kyrie trade, LeBron very well might have signed for another year.

And no, they weren’t good enough to win in 2018.

 

[trojanfan12]

Pretty sure Shane is thinking of a different deal in which Indiana backed out that had Love going to Indiana. Not a deal in which Kyrie was included.

It's also not just how wiggy tells it, but Griffin has said as much. Deal would not be made (for PG) without commitment from Lebron and I don't blame them.

I absolutely blame them. PG, Bledsoe and Love would have been some real nice pieces to build around or even trade if they still wanted to blow it up and rebuild from scratch. Love wouldn't be relegated to standing at the 3 point line in that lineup either. He could have played more like he did in Minny, imo.

 

[dtgold88]

No he didn’t.

He signed a 1 + 1 every year until the Cavs won, then he signed a 2 + 1.

And as soon as he signed for more than a year, Gilbert stopped going all in to win now.

How did Gilbert stop going all in to win with the offer for PG? Can you name anything they did which showed Gilbert would not spend? Not a move you didn't like, but a move they could have made that Gilbert put the kabosh on it due to money.

FYI, the 2+1 was a whopping 1 less year than he signed for in LA.

 

[dtgold88]

No.

LeBron wasn’t going to sign long term period.

Gilbert wouldn’t make the win now moves to keep LeBron unless LeBron signed long term.

Pretty simple really.

1 had to be first and move in good faith. Neither did, so LeBron left.

But yeah, I do believe that had Cleveland still been good enough to win a title after the Kyrie trade, LeBron very well might have signed for another year.

And no, they weren’t good enough to win in 2018.

Gilbert set payroll records for the sport and always made it clear money would never get in his way. do you have an example where Gilbert was asked to spend and wouldn't solely because of the money?

Probably not good enough in 2018 but neither was anyone else if GS was healthy. Irrelevant to your argument, but goes along with your baseless opinions.

 

[dtgold88]

I absolutely blame them. PG, Bledsoe and Love would have been some real nice pieces to build around or even trade if they still wanted to blow it up and rebuild from scratch. Love wouldn't be relegated to standing at the 3 point line in that lineup either. He could have played more like he did in Minny, imo.

How could you build around them if they all decided to leave? and PG and Lebron could have left in the same year, correct? You are saying they were going to deal PG while contending for a title because he might leave? Like that's gonna get Lebron to stay?

Like Lance, this argument of yours makes no sense.

Fact - Gilbert set payroll records for the sport.

If you want to make the argument Lebron didn't like him and just wanted to leave you could make that case. Making it about money is absurd. If like Lance you don't like the word, we can just say it's dumb to make it about money.

 

[dtgold88]

would add there have been other baseless reports about Gilbert that have been debunked. In many cases by the people involved as opposed to baseless rumors.

First it was said Lebron left because Gilbert would not pay Griffin to stay. By Griffin's own comments and Lebron's replies to them we know that is a myth. Griffin even said he knew he was leaving after they won a title "and no amount of money would change his mind". Kind of put down Lebron and what it's like trying to build a team with him and Lebron did not react so kindly to those comments. Hard to believe keeping Griff was a must to keep Lebron.

was also this as far as whether Lebron's departure was going to happen regardless of what the cavs did.....Joe Vardon premised a question about LeBron to former general manager David Griffin on the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast:

You had had a feeling that he was going to do this. You knew, pretty much as soon as you won in 2016, that this year would be the year that he would be gone.

Griffin didn’t at all object to that.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I think you are thinking of the deal that involved Love, not Kyrie. And, yes, rumors on that were Indiana backed out. Was a 3 team deal with Love going to Denver. Don't recall what Indiana was getting (or even what we were getting).

Yeah that is another one but there was another one with PHX-IND-CLE where PHX backed out bc they didn’t want to give up the #4 pick. I’ve never heard about a Denver deal

 

[tlance]

How did Gilbert stop going all in to win with the offer for PG? Can you name anything they did which showed Gilbert would not spend? Not a move you didn't like, but a move they could have made that Gilbert put the kabosh on it due to money.

FYI, the 2+1 was a whopping 1 less year than he signed for in LA.

I did not say anything about spending. But it seems as though LeBron needed the short term contracts to hold Gilbert’s feet to the fire.

And the 2 + 1 came as his 3rd contract after the title.

He signed for 3 in LA and 4 in Miami right off the bat.

 

[trojanfan12]

How could you build around them if they all decided to leave? and PG and Lebron could have left in the same year, correct? You are saying they were going to deal PG while contending for a title because he might leave? Like that's gonna get Lebron to stay?

No, I'm saying that maybe they decide to stay, even if Lebron leaves. If they leave too...so what? At least your tried to keep him and make another run.

Like Lance, this argument of yours makes no sense.

Fact - Gilbert set payroll records for the sport.

Yep, all the way up until he decided he wanted his franchise back. Once he didn't get a commitment from Lebron, he did the one thing that he knew would guarantee Lebron leaving...backed out that deal.

If you want to make the argument Lebron didn't like him and just wanted to leave you could make that case. Making it about money is absurd. If like Lance you don't like the word, we can just say it's dumb to make it about money.

No it isn't. He set payroll records when he knew Lebron was going to stay, he stopped when Lebron wouldn't commit.

 

[dtgold88]

Yeah that is another one but there was another one with PHX-IND-CLE where PHX backed out bc they didn’t want to give up the #4 pick. I’ve never heard about a Denver deal

That's the one being discussed more I think. I think more likely Cavs or Indiana backed out of that one as would think Suns would take Kyrie over the 4 and Bledsoe.

 

[dtgold88]

I did not say anything about spending. But it seems as though LeBron needed the short term contracts to hold Gilbert’s feet to the fire.

And the 2 + 1 came as his 3rd contract after the title.

He signed for 3 in LA and 4 in Miami right off the bat.

"needed to hold Gilbert's feet to the fire"? You keep saying it's a chicken and egg thing, but Gilbert proved every year (with and without Lebron) he would never let spending stop him from making a move to help the team. The guy paid for Baron Davis' contract when they had no shot of winning to get the pick that became Kyrie.

3rd contract after the title? He signed a 1+1 when he came back. won the title after year 2, the title year, then signed the 2+1 (his first deal after the title).

and he stayed as many years in Cleveland as he did in Miami with his 4 years right off the bat deal. also has returned to Cleveland. Has not returned to Miami.

Never mind your "logic" is beyond absurd (or dumb if you prefer). He would not agree to stay if they signed PG, which proves Gilbert will still go all out, because he needs Gilbert to prove he'll still go all out?

 

[dtgold88]

No, I'm saying that maybe they decide to stay, even if Lebron leaves. If they leave too...so what? At least your tried to keep him and make another run.



Yep, all the way up until he decided he wanted his franchise back. Once he didn't get a commitment from Lebron, he did the one thing that he knew would guarantee Lebron leaving...backed out that deal.



No it isn't. He set payroll records when he knew Lebron was going to stay, he stopped when Lebron wouldn't commit.

You realize you are making it up as you go and your opinions are baseless? Nothing factual can support it. Not that it is in you to say as much.

Your "logic" is so flawed I can only hope you are just trying to bust my balls and don't actually believe what you are spewing. If you do believe it, then that is priceless.

To avoid being banned again I will let you get the last word in our discussion. Unless, of course, you just need that power you get from a ban then have at it. Always said I'm a team player for you.