2018-2019 NBA Regular Season Thread

[CitySushi]

Shut up, Sushi. It's been very tiring times for me!

Better late than never....

 

[Heatles84]

Well if you're saying you want to see a game where Klay takes 30+ shots, I'm absolutely down for that. LOL.

I completely agree that Thompson is a beneficiary of playing next to Curry, but you don't hear the same arguments when it comes to other all time greats who have played with great talent as well. I think you can only judge for what is in front of you, instead of what ifs. What if Pippen never played with Jordan? Would he be considered one of the greatest of all time, or just a great of his era? What if Shaq never played with Kobe or Wade...does he get any rings? Or what if Magic didn't have the luxury of playing with Kareem? Stockton and Malone. The list goes on.

There are plenty of players who were major beneficiaries of their teammates, but I think it's unfair to hold them to something that they couldn't otherwise prove. Were they lucky in their situations? Absolutely. But I don't think it necessarily changes how they should be viewed.

I think Klay is a great secondary star, that fits into the mold of say Pippen where he's not the main guy; but he's an all-star that assists the main guy. That still makes him worthy of a max contract when discussing Klay. If you put Scottie in today's league, he'd likely fill that role and be deserving of a max contract.

Point is, Love's been thrust into the main guy role, and he doesn't really elevate his teams whatsoever. So yes, with Love, we do have a sample size of him being the #1 guy. But it's not great when reviewing the results.

 

[CitySushi]

but counted in defensive metrics.

It's just a part of the overall metrics. Being a great rebounder doesn't make you a great defender. Just like leading the league in steals doesn't make you a great defender either. Monta Ellis had back to back seasons averaging over 2 steals a game (which is great). But I can tell you first hand he was an awful defender. All he did was gamble a lot and when he missed he gave up easy buckets. That's not being a good defender.

 

[dtgold88]

Yep, the Warriors are pretty stacked and they have 3 max level players (at least until Durant leaves which is looking more likely)

It's a fact to everyone but you

you get Klay has never signed a max deal, right? You might want to look up opinion and fact before continuing here.

 

[Heatles84]

defensive rebounding is defense. Love's among the best.

But I do love the when fans play the "let's look at defense" when all else fails....easy to do as no great way to "prove" anything.

Curry's, at best, an awful defender. Among the top PGs in the league?

Defensive rebounding is simply one aspect of defense - it's not the entirety of the conversation. And again, at 6'10, I would hope that Love's a great rebounder.

How's Love in terms of man-to-man or perimeter defense? Shitty.

And there's no fail in my argument. We're in agreement that both are great scorers, but I'll take Klay's 3-point shooting, and willing to listen that Love's the better interior scorer (I would hope so at 6'10).

Defense is the other half of the game. So when someone says "let's look at defense", it's let's go ahead and analyze the other half of what evaluates them as a player in whole.

So I love it when guys resort to "I love it when...." without bringing anything relevant to help them in the overall debate.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, when no one is really taking your side in the argument, and you have fans from other teams supporting Warriors fans in the argument; more than likely, you're wrong. This is one of those times.

 

[Heatles84]

It's just a part of the overall metrics. Being a great rebounder doesn't make you a great defender. Just like leading the league in steals doesn't make you a great defender either. Monta Ellis had back to back seasons averaging over 2 steals a game (which is great). But I can tell you first hand he was an awful defender. All he did was gamble a lot and when he missed he gave up easy buckets. That's not being a good defender.

Can you say that again?

 

[dtgold88]

I'd rather have Klay than Kyrie for sure. So he's only behind Lebron, Durant, and Curry otherwise? 3 of the absolute best players in the league? That's your argument, lol?

Did you miss where I mentioned the actual Finals in which they played? And in 2016 he was behind Green. 2017 might have been behind Love. At best, he was no better than 5th in either series.

 

[Heatles84]

you get Klay has never signed a max deal, right? You might want to look up opinion and fact before continuing here.

You do realize that he signs the max extension from his rookie deal, right?

Thompson, Warriors agree to $70M extension

This will be his first big contract in the NBA when FA hits in July.

 

[dtgold88]

Curry at best is an average defender if not a little more. So wrong again.

Ok...at best he's average.

Also means likely he is well below avg.

Think he's a top 3 PG?

 

[dtgold88]

It affects the defense by preventing another possession. It does nothing to prevent/hinder the initial shot/play however. It's a grey area, like special teams in football.

Yet most defensive metrics (maybe all?) include defensive rebounding as a factor

 

[CitySushi]

Ok...at best he's average.

Also means likely he is well below avg.

Think he's a top 3 PG?

Top 3 PG in today's NBA or top 3 all time?

 

[Heatles84]

Derrr......Klay never signed a max contract....derrrr..

*Meanwhile, Klay hasn't had the opportunity to sign a max contract given his time in the league.*

 

[CitySushi]

Yet most defensive metrics (maybe all?) include defensive rebounding as a factor

Charles Barkley is one of the greatest rebounders of all time and even he admits that he wasn't a good defender.

 

[dtgold88]

Defensive rebounding is absolutely necessary. But, IMO, I feel like deflections is a better indicator of defensive ability. But again, there's no one statistic that determines defensive ability in the NBA.

It's basically like interceptions and passes defended in the NFL. If you have one player who had say 6 interceptions in the season and 7 pass deflections versus a player with maybe 2 interceptions but 13 pass deflections, which player is the better defender? You can't really tell just based on those metric, but both stats, in addition to others can help compile the defensive profile of a player.

No disagreement there.....overall D tough to gauge.

Would add in football, a guy with less INTs and deflections could be being avoided by the offense.

 

[dtgold88]

Well if you're saying you want to see a game where Klay takes 30+ shots, I'm absolutely down for that. LOL.

I completely agree that Thompson is a beneficiary of playing next to Curry, but you don't hear the same arguments when it comes to other all time greats who have played with great talent as well. I think you can only judge for what is in front of you, instead of what ifs. What if Pippen never played with Jordan? Would he be considered one of the greatest of all time, or just a great of his era? What if Shaq never played with Kobe or Wade...does he get any rings? Or what if Magic didn't have the luxury of playing with Kareem? Stockton and Malone. The list goes on.

There are plenty of players who were major beneficiaries of their teammates, but I think it's unfair to hold them to something that they couldn't otherwise prove. Were they lucky in their situations? Absolutely. But I don't think it necessarily changes how they should be viewed.

Other than Pippen the difference is the guys you mentioned were arguably their team's #1 guy. Klay is his team's #3.

 

[CitySushi]

No disagreement there.....overall D tough to gauge.

Would add in football, a guy with less INTs and deflections could be being avoided by the offense.

Yeah that's one aspect I missed. You could have a guy with less numbers than either of the examples I provided and be a better defender too. Just too hard to judge defensive ability based on a few statistical categories, IMO. There are so many variables to making a good defender.

 

[shopson67]

Did you miss where I mentioned the actual Finals in which they played? And in 2016 he was behind Green. 2017 might have been behind Love. At best, he was no better than 5th in either series.

Agree to vehemently disagree.

 

[shopson67]

Yet most defensive metrics (maybe all?) include defensive rebounding as a factor

It's a factor. However, when people describe defensive ability, it's rarely what they are talking about. They're talking preventing the shot at hand, locking down the opposing player, help defense, defending the pick/roll, forcing turnovers, etc.

 

[dtgold88]

I think Klay is a great secondary star, that fits into the mold of say Pippen where he's not the main guy; but he's an all-star that assists the main guy. That still makes him worthy of a max contract when discussing Klay. If you put Scottie in today's league, he'd likely fill that role and be deserving of a max contract.

Point is, Love's been thrust into the main guy role, and he doesn't really elevate his teams whatsoever. So yes, with Love, we do have a sample size of him being the #1 guy. But it's not great when reviewing the results.

Love has had garbage teams, though. 40 wins in the West with his last Minnesota team is far better than Klay could have done with him.

Hell, have you seen what's happened in Cleveland since he returned? Even less talent than his Minnesota teams and they are playing far better. 6-4 when he plays. 0-4 when he doesn't. One of the losses he left after playing only 6 minutes (they were winning at the time). 11-39 while he was out before the injury.

 

[dtgold88]

It's just a part of the overall metrics. Being a great rebounder doesn't make you a great defender. Just like leading the league in steals doesn't make you a great defender either. Monta Ellis had back to back seasons averaging over 2 steals a game (which is great). But I can tell you first hand he was an awful defender. All he did was gamble a lot and when he missed he gave up easy buckets. That's not being a good defender.

did someone say being a great rebounder makes you a great defender?