2019 Needs

[BSUSeahawk]

Throughout the season I was really frustrated by the run-defense of our interior defensive linemen. Although, in the final 5-6 weeks or so when Poona Ford was getting significant snaps inside, he was an absolute force.

Shamar Stephen was awful. Hated the signing in the first place and I'd prefer not to see him on the team next year. I'd like to see more of a depth addition here, either through the draft or bringing in a vet that can rotate with Poona Ford and Jarran Reed. Also worth noting that at the other edge spot, I believe we can expect more of an impact from Rasheem Green in 2019. When the Seahawks drafted him he was still very raw, so it's not surprising to see he didn't play much in 2018.

I'm surprised nobody is bringing up the fact that the secondary was awful this year. Bradley McDougald started the season off strong but kind of faded. He's roughly a league average starter, but that's really the only decent starter we have in the secondary.

I know many of the guys in the secondary are still young and learning, but to say that Tedric Thompson, Tre Flowers, Justin Coleman and Shaquill Griffin were anything better than awful would be quite a compliment.

Yeah, I'm with you on the secondary. I think that's where the Seahawks are the most devoid of talent of anywhere on the roster (what a difference a couple years makes, huh..). McDougald and Griffin are starting-quality, but that's about it. Thompson and Flowers are not good at all, and I didn't see anything to suggest that they should be involved in any major roles in the future. Thompson is an okay backup FS I guess. I know people like Flowers' size, but it doesn't do much if you have zero ball skills and are routinely beat.

Like you said, McDougald was really good early in the year, but faded late. I still think he's better than league average. I'm willing to give him a pass - it seems as if he was really banged up with that knee. I like him at SS. Griffin is a good guy to pair with a better corner on the other side. Not a bad player, but it's not a good situation if he's your best corner.

If they went some combination of CB-S in the first two picks I would be happy with it, assuming the talent matches the draft spot.

 

[blstoker]

But truth in lending, did he really play all that much? He was a regular on ST and I thought he did fine there. He had that emergency start week 1, struggled, and then didn't really get many defensive snaps until late Nov or so.

He played a total of 9 defensive snaps after week 1.

 

[blstoker]

Yeah, I'm with you on the secondary. I think that's where the Seahawks are the most devoid of talent of anywhere on the roster (what a difference a couple years makes, huh..). McDougald and Griffin are starting-quality, but that's about it. Thompson and Flowers are not good at all, and I didn't see anything to suggest that they should be involved in any major roles in the future. Thompson is an okay backup FS I guess. I know people like Flowers' size, but it doesn't do much if you have zero ball skills and are routinely beat.

Like you said, McDougald was really good early in the year, but faded late. I still think he's better than league average. I'm willing to give him a pass - it seems as if he was really banged up with that knee. I like him at SS. Griffin is a good guy to pair with a better corner on the other side. Not a bad player, but it's not a good situation if he's your best corner.

If they went some combination of CB-S in the first two picks I would be happy with it, assuming the talent matches the draft spot.

That’s funny, cause I thought Flowers had the better season at corner than Griffin did, overall. Still, he’s extremely young and changed positions, so he has a lot of growth in him.

Completely agree with Thompson. I thought he was terrible most of the season, with flashes of competence here and there. Need a free safety upgrade of some kind.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Yeah, I'm with you on the secondary. I think that's where the Seahawks are the most devoid of talent of anywhere on the roster (what a difference a couple years makes, huh..). McDougald and Griffin are starting-quality, but that's about it. Thompson and Flowers are not good at all, and I didn't see anything to suggest that they should be involved in any major roles in the future. Thompson is an okay backup FS I guess. I know people like Flowers' size, but it doesn't do much if you have zero ball skills and are routinely beat.

Like you said, McDougald was really good early in the year, but faded late. I still think he's better than league average. I'm willing to give him a pass - it seems as if he was really banged up with that knee. I like him at SS. Griffin is a good guy to pair with a better corner on the other side. Not a bad player, but it's not a good situation if he's your best corner.

If they went some combination of CB-S in the first two picks I would be happy with it, assuming the talent matches the draft spot.

I agree with your assessment. I think being the #1 CB really hit Griffin pretty hard and I don't expect him to play as poorly next year if we see more improvement in the unit in general.

You're completely right on McDougald. He was actually playing really well until he had that knee injury and was above average last year as well. I'm completely fine with him going forward, but there needs to be improvement at the other safety position as you mentioned and the other outside CB position.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Wow. It's an opinion that the secondary was awful, not fact. I was going to offer a couple counters to what you're saying, but this is so over the top with hyperbole that there isn't much point. (And you totally ignored Bradley McDougald)

Awful is a bit of a stretch - I'll give you that - but it is an objectively reasonable opinion to say that the secondary is below average/mediocre. I did mention Bradley McDougald, as you can see I see him to be roughly a league average to above average starting safety.

If you want to offer some counterarguments to what I said, I'd be happy to hear them.

I base this predominately on the fact that Justin Coleman gave up a QB rating of 90, Tre Flowers gave up a QB rating of 111.8, and Shaquill Griffin gave up a QB rating of 100.4. Each of them all allowed more than 500 yards and a 60%+ catch rating on the season.

If you put any stock into PFF's rankings, here is how those guys rank:
- Bradley McDougald #24 S
- Tedric Thompson #54 S
- Justin Coleman #54 CB
- Shaquill Griffin #115 CB
- Tre Flowers #66 CB

Awful is an exaggeration obviously, and you're right that I could've used more neutral language in my opinion. Although I don't think there is a very compelling argument that the secondary could be argued to be any better than below average.

 

[seahawksfan234]

That’s funny, cause I thought Flowers had the better season at corner than Griffin did, overall. Still, he’s extremely young and changed positions, so he has a lot of growth in him.

Completely agree with Thompson. I thought he was terrible most of the season, with flashes of competence here and there. Need a free safety upgrade of some kind.

I still see Flowers as more of a project. I think the coaching staff is hoping he develops until a Richard Sherman-like CB, but he was still not great in 2018 - which can be attributed to the position change and youth.

 

[seahawksfan234]

He played a total of 9 defensive snaps after week 1.

Not that I expected him to step in and be a star, but I was surprised how consistently out of position he was week 1. Almost wonder if nerves played a role.

 

[blstoker]

I still see Flowers as more of a project. I think the coaching staff is hoping he develops until a Richard Sherman-like CB, but he was still not great in 2018 - which can be attributed to the position change and youth.

Definitely a project. He made the adjustment from S to CB a lot easier than I expected - but he's still got a long way to go. He got better as the season went on as well, so he showed that he is learning the position. We'll see how all the experience this season translates into growth next season.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Definitely a project. He made the adjustment from S to CB a lot easier than I expected - but he's still got a long way to go. He got better as the season went on as well, so he showed that he is learning the position. We'll see how all the experience this season translates into growth next season.

Agreed.

Not sure how to approach the secondary issue since everyone is still so young. It is hard to write off Flowers when he is playing CB for the first time in his career, and he's getting the taste of CB at the NFL level. Hard to determine how well he will progress, but I do think the Seahawks need an upgrade at the outside CB position. The secondary was a liability for us.

This is the UW fan in me, but perhaps the Seahawks should look at Taylor Rapp in the draft. I've seen him go anywhere between the first and third rounds, but he's overall an extremely well rounded safety who plays the run well and is good in pass protection. I wouldn't want him playing FS in the Seahawks defense, but I think he'd be an excellent SS.

 

[BSUSeahawk]

Awful is a bit of a stretch - I'll give you that - but it is an objectively reasonable opinion to say that the secondary is below average/mediocre. I did mention Bradley McDougald, as you can see I see him to be roughly a league average to above average starting safety.

If you want to offer some counterarguments to what I said, I'd be happy to hear them.

I base this predominately on the fact that Justin Coleman gave up a QB rating of 90, Tre Flowers gave up a QB rating of 111.8, and Shaquill Griffin gave up a QB rating of 100.4. Each of them all allowed more than 500 yards and a 60%+ catch rating on the season.

If you put any stock into PFF's rankings, here is how those guys rank:
- Bradley McDougald #24 S
- Tedric Thompson #54 S
- Justin Coleman #54 CB
- Shaquill Griffin #115 CB
- Tre Flowers #66 CB

Awful is an exaggeration obviously, and you're right that I could've used more neutral language in my opinion. Although I don't think there is a very compelling argument that the secondary could be argued to be any better than below average.

Essentially the Seahawks have a starting caliber safety and that's it. Whether that's "awful" or just "really bad" it's clearly the weak spot of the defense, and the entire team.

 

[BSUSeahawk]

That’s funny, cause I thought Flowers had the better season at corner than Griffin did, overall. Still, he’s extremely young and changed positions, so he has a lot of growth in him.

Completely agree with Thompson. I thought he was terrible most of the season, with flashes of competence here and there. Need a free safety upgrade of some kind.

Seeing some of the grades it looks like you're definitely right. I knew Shaq had a bad season, but I didn't realize just how bad. Still, I have hopes for him based off of 2017. I didn't see much out of Flowers that gives me a ton of hope moving forward. I think they need at least 2 starters at CB - 1 in the slot and 1 on the outside.

 

[JMR]

He played a total of 9 defensive snaps after week 1.

Not as many as I thought I remembered, but it serves my larger point: I don't think he played enough on defense to be all that critical over his play. He barely played outside of ST, like most 5th round rookies.

 

[MrS]

Im not advocating taking a WR, but AJ Brown from Ole Miss could be a target for our team. 6'1 225lbs, route runner with great hands. Probably later rounds, does not have high end speed.

 

[chf]

Thompson and Flowers are not good at all,

Huh? Given he was a rookie playing out of position he was fucking AMAZING!

Good grief. How many years in a row have say a team like the Packers been trying to find 2 consistent starting DB's. In two years, we've found two solid CB's.

 

[BSUSeahawk]

Huh? Given he was a rookie playing out of position he was fucking AMAZING!

Good grief. How many years in a row have say a team like the Packers been trying to find 2 consistent starting DB's. In two years, we've found two solid CB's.

He was not amazing, or even close to it. Both he and Griffin had poor years, by pretty much every statistical measure there is.

Now if you want to say that you saw enough in his first season and Shaq's first two seasons to believe they will be good down the line, fair enough. But they were bad this year, and in my opinion, from what I saw of Flowers, I would be surprised if he turned out to be a good corner. He lacks any kind of ball skills as a corner and wasn't great in coverage. He's a great tackler for a CB, but that's not really the priority.

 

[MrS]

i think people are being a little too harsh on flowers. i dont recall many moments where his failures really stood out like griffins did.

PFF ranks him average, which is NOT bad for a rookie playing one of the most difficult positions in the game.

 

[chf]

He was not amazing, or even close to it. Both he and Griffin had poor years, by pretty much every statistical measure there is.

Now if you want to say that you saw enough in his first season and Shaq's first two seasons to believe they will be good down the line, fair enough. But they were bad this year, and in my opinion, from what I saw of Flowers, I would be surprised if he turned out to be a good corner. He lacks any kind of ball skills as a corner and wasn't great in coverage. He's a great tackler for a CB, but that's not really the priority.

Are you paying attention to what was routinely happening across the NFL this year? DB's being torched on the regular. I'm not sure what your bar is to be honest.

Are either of them Sherman2.0? Nope, if that's your bar, then good luck with that.

AGAIN, he was a freaking rookie, learning a whole new position, playing against men in the NFL, in a historical year (and WE played the Rams twice and KC once)

By any reasonable metric, Flowers stood up incredibly well. Certainly enough for the team to be optimistic about what he can grow into as a freaking SOPHMORE!

You want to dump him and look for a new corner? How long do you think he'd stay on the waiver wire? A nano-second? Other GM's would snap that guy up in a heartbeat.

 

[chf]

And Griffin wasn't awful either. Did he get beat some? Sure.

How many times this year was Patrick Peterson torched?

 

[BSUSeahawk]

Are you paying attention to what was routinely happening across the NFL this year? DB's being torched on the regular. I'm not sure what your bar is to be honest.

Are either of them Sherman2.0? Nope, if that's your bar, then good luck with that.

AGAIN, he was a freaking rookie, learning a whole new position, playing against men in the NFL, in a historical year (and WE played the Rams twice and KC once)

By any reasonable metric, Flowers stood up incredibly well. Certainly enough for the team to be optimistic about what he can grow into as a freaking SOPHMORE!

You want to dump him and look for a new corner? How long do you think he'd stay on the waiver wire? A nano-second? Other GM's would snap that guy up in a heartbeat.

Passing going up or other DBs struggling has absolutely nothing to do with our opinions - these guys are graded against their peers. Shaq didn't crack the top 100 corners this year (per PFF). Top 100!!! Flowers, Coleman and Thompson graded poorly as well. And anyone skeptical of metrics or analytics (which they shouldn't be) can always look at traditional numbers like PR against or any others and see that it was a rough year for the secondary.

Again, there are two different discussions here:

1. Whether they had good years - which they objectively did not.

2. Whether or not they can be good players down the line: the book is definitely still out on that.

My opinion is that Flowers and Thompson are better served as organizational depth. I'm not advocating for them to be cut. I'm saying that I don't think either of them belong on the field for a good base defense.

Frankly, the numbers suggest that Shaq probably should be included in that, but I'm willing to bet on the talent there moreso than the other two. And I like McDougald - a lot. He makes a lot of sense to be the in the box safety in this defense.

 

[BSUSeahawk]

And Griffin wasn't awful either. Did he get beat some? Sure.

How many times this year was Patrick Peterson torched?

As I've said a few times, I like Griffin a lot. I think the talent is undoubtedly there and he has the potential to be a good corner in the NFL.

But he had a really bad year.