POLL Vote for the MVP

[BallsOfFurry]

Houston wins in 5 or 6. Plus Harden was just answering a question he was asked. He didn't bring it up. Not to mention he's right.

I agree, The Thunder doesn't have the overall talent to give Houston much trouble. Westbrook would likely need a ridiculous game just to avoid a sweep.
I hope Oklahoma City can attract some excellent complimentary players in the off season.

 

[Wishbone]

Houston wins in 5 or 6. Plus Harden was just answering a question he was asked. He didn't bring it up. Not to mention he's right.

Then by Hardens admission a Warriors or Cavs player should win it.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

OKC probably has better talent than does Houston.
Quit pretending Harden has a stocked roster and Westbrook has bums.

In futures win totals:

OKC was supposed to win 45 game.
Houston was supposed to win 41 games.

People forget that OKC was looked at as having better players before the season started.
Vegas analyzed the talent and figured OKC was the more talented roster.

Harden is winning with a pretty crap roster.

 

[tlance]

OKC probably has better talent than does Houston.
Quit pretending Harden has a stocked roster and Westbrook has bums.

In futures win totals:

OKC was supposed to win 45 game.
Houston was supposed to win 41 games.

People forget that OKC was looked at as having better players before the season started.
Vegas analyzed the talent and figured OKC was the more talented roster.

Harden is winning with a pretty crap roster.

Harden has played with cast offs and has made guys like Eric Gordon, Clint Capella and Ryan Anderson highly effective.

Westbrook's teammates have produced very little, but that is a lot because Westbrook doesn't give them the opportunity to produce.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Harden has played with cast offs and has made guys like Eric Gordon, Clint Capella and Ryan Anderson highly effective.

Westbrook's teammates have produced very little, but that is a lot because Westbrook doesn't give them the opportunity to produce.

That makes no sense. Westbrook passes, and rebounds at high rates, these things create opportunities for teammates. Also Houston has far more offensive talent outside of Harden than Oklahoma does outside of RW.

 

[tlance]

That makes no sense. Westbrook passes, and rebounds at high rates, these things create opportunities for teammates. Also Houston has far more offensive talent outside of Harden than Oklahoma does outside of RW.

Have looked at the stat sheets?

Westbrook's teammates do almost nothing. He does everything.

While many common fans think this is a good thing, the reality is that it is not. Harden does a much better job keeping teammates involved in the offense. Westbrook's teammates get little more than sporadic jump shot opportunities. players need touches to stay in rhythm.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Have looked at the stat sheets?

Westbrook's teammates do almost nothing. He does everything.

While many common fans think this is a good thing, the reality is that it is not. Harden does a much better job keeping teammates involved in the offense. Westbrook's teammates get little more than sporadic jump shot opportunities. players need touches to stay in rhythm.

Not so fast.
When RW is on the floor The thunder's opponents average 2.1 fewer points than when he's on the bench. When Harden is in the game Houston's opponents average 4.8 points more than when he's on the bench, that is horrible.
Any way I break down net contributions RW comes out on top. He is simply a greater net plus for his team that Harden is for his.

 

[tlance]

Not so fast.
When RW is on the floor The thunder's opponents average 2.1 fewer points than when he's on the bench. When Harden is in the game Houston's opponents average 4.8 points more than when he's on the bench, that is horrible.
Any way I break down net contributions RW comes out on top. He is simply a greater net plus for his team that Harden is for his.

Win shares:

Harden: 14.7
Westbrook: 12.7

That is a big difference.

When was the last time an MVP played for a team that won less than 50 games?

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Then by Hardens admission a Warriors or Cavs player should win it.

It's a very weak argument by Harden.
Westbrook has the highest clutch offensive rating in NBA history by a lot.
RW's combined Pts/Assist/rebounds production has only been acceded 2 times in NBA history, both by Wilt Chamberlin.
Westbrook's 36 minute prorated combined offensive production pts/assist/rebounds is 2nd all time to Wilt, Harden is 8th.
RW's PER rating is 11.2, Harden's is 8.4.

Add all of these superior offensive ratings for RW to his team being 2.2 pts better defensively with him in the game over 36 minutes vs Harden's team giving up 4.8 MORE pts with him in the game over 36 minutes than when he's on the bench. That is a 7 net team points improvement on defense for RW vs Harden. That adds up to is with all other factors equal, RW's team wins on average by 7 pts over a Harden led team.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Win shares:

Harden: 14.7
Westbrook: 12.7

That is a big difference.

When was the last time an MVP played for a team that won less than 50 games?

My breakdown is far more specific and completely favors RW for his value to his team.

 

[tlance]

My breakdown is far more specific and completely favors RW for his value to his team.

Your "breakdown" was specific to the defensive side of the floor. Win shares encompasses everything. Harden comes out ahead.

But, if you want to make the defensive argument, then go with Leonard.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Your "breakdown" was specific to the defensive side of the floor. Win shares encompasses everything. Harden comes out ahead.

But, if you want to make the defensive argument, then go with Leonard.

Win shares is a false equivalency because Houston has a stronger overall team and won more games. It doesn't tell the percentage of each team's wins most influenced by each player.
When you take all of the areas I showed where RW is superior, I venture to say he has a greater influence per game than Harden does.

 

[tlance]

Win shares is a false equivalency because Houston has a stronger overall team and won more games. It doesn't tell the percentage of each team's wins most influenced by each player.
When you take all of the areas I showed where RW is superior, I venture to say he has a greater influence per game than Harden does.

See, that is necessarily true.

If you polled NBA GMs before the season started, 95% would have taken the pieces on OKC's roster over the pieces on Houston from a talent standpoint. The reason Houston has played so well is that the peices fit together better to execute D'Antoni's offense and Harden has played his role to perfection.

The issue is that stats can't accurately measure the total impact of each player. How much does Westbrook's ball dominance hurt his teammates' efficiency? How much does Harden's court vision and Houston's floor spacing help his teammates produce?

To me, those two things are not shown on the stat sheet, but I think that is the real reason for the win gap between the two teams. Houston plays better as a team, and that can be traced directly to their in court leader.

 

[thunderc]

Win shares:

Harden: 14.7
Westbrook: 12.7

That is a big difference.

When was the last time an MVP played for a team that won less than 50 games?

Who gives a shit? MVP is MVP, and it is Westbrook going away.

 

[thunderc]

See, that is necessarily true.

If you polled NBA GMs before the season started, 95% would have taken the pieces on OKC's roster over the pieces on Houston from a talent standpoint. The reason Houston has played so well is that the peices fit together better to execute D'Antoni's offense and Harden has played his role to perfection.

The issue is that stats can't accurately measure the total impact of each player. How much does Westbrook's ball dominance hurt his teammates' efficiency? How much does Harden's court vision and Houston's floor spacing help his teammates produce?

To me, those two things are not shown on the stat sheet, but I think that is the real reason for the win gap between the two teams. Houston plays better as a team, and that can be traced directly to their in court leader.

When has Harden ever been referred to as a leader of anything? Sorry but before this year he has been known as nothing more than one of the worst teammates out there. Doubt it ever changes.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Who gives a shit? MVP is MVP, and it is Westbrook going away.

Brash and concise, well stated my dear fellow..well stated.

 

[tlance]

When has Harden ever been referred to as a leader of anything? Sorry but before this year he has been known as nothing more than one of the worst teammates out there. Doubt it ever changes.

I agree 100%. Before this year I couldn't stand Harden. He still sucks on defense, but he has completely changed his offensive game for the better. He is not the same player.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

OKC probably has better talent than does Houston.
Quit pretending Harden has a stocked roster and Westbrook has bums.

In futures win totals:

OKC was supposed to win 45 game.
Houston was supposed to win 41 games.

People forget that OKC was looked at as having better players before the season started.
Vegas analyzed the talent and figured OKC was the more talented roster.

Harden is winning with a pretty crap roster.

As with prior preseasons, prognosticators underrated the value of dumping Dwight Howard.
A team can't play 5 on 5 with DH, I knew The Hawks' chances of amounting to anything left town with Danny Ferry when Budenholzer made that turkey of a deal.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I agree 100%. Before this year I couldn't stand Harden. He still sucks on defense, but he has completely changed his offensive game for the better. He is not the same player.

Harden probably operates from the top of the key as well as any player I've seen.
His defense is a big liability though, that is going to become obvious in postseason play.