Think Kobe isn't retiring after next season? Think again.

[OutlawImmortal]

Lebron played in one finals without the "help" that Kobe had. When he went to Miami, he joined 2 other all-stars. Considering that with the first 3 titles, it was Kobe, Shaq and bunch of role players and for the last 2 it was Kobe, Pau, a Bynum who couldn't stay healthy and role players, you could make a case that Kobe had less help than Lebron.

Outside of the one season in Cleveland when the Cavs made it, Lebron has always been part of a "big 3" where Kobe has been part of a "big 2." Heck, Lebron even set up a "big 3" this time around in Cleveland.

I'm not sure how Lebron in his prime and Shaq in his prime would have worked. Lebron has never really been that great of an outside shooter. He's gotten most of his points by driving to the basket. Shaq never ventured more than about 5-7 feet from the basket. Essentially, he would have been in Lebron's way.

I think Lebron and Shaq would have eventually made a great pairing because Lebron is a pretty smart player. He'd have figured out that he needed to improve his jumper to prevent teams packing the paint and started working on it earlier.

Ray Allen had recently been apart of Boston's "big 3" as well, you could actually label it a "big 4" if you wanted to, especially when you consider that huge shot he hit in Game 6 against the Spurs.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

It remains to be seen if Kobe can play this season, but in order to finish the season, I think he would have to see the Lakers land two really good players that could give them a big three. With the rookies in tow, the Lakers would have a core for the future and a legitimate shot in the players. For the record I do not consider Kevin Love or Rajon Rondo to be the two players the Lakers would need. I think the Lakers would need better than that. As far as the following year is concerned - I think that depends on how Kobe feels in his body and if his body is able to hold up. No one knows that now and it's all speculation though.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Of course Shaq saw more double and triple teams. He's a center, he played within a few feet of the basket. I'm pretty sure Duncan has seen more double and triple teams than Parker and Ginobili. Does that mean he had any more to do with their titles?

Kareem saw more double and triple teams than Magic.

Sometimes, it's about where a guy plays on the floor.

I think it goes back to the parable of the sower in the bible. Some of the seed turned into plants or trees that produced 40 times while others 50 and others 100. Forgive me for paraphrasing, but in that analogy every one gave 100% effort, but the fruit they produced varied in size and quantity. The only thing that really matters is the combined fruit of their labor brought in a championship. You can't take out the Horry and his shot that silenced Sacramento without unraveling that title.

 

[trojanfan12]

I was referring to something Shaneman said -and was referencing his statements in this thread. If that is off topic then we both are.

I haven't said anything to you or facepalmed you in this thread. Now put down the bottle man. You're having trouble keeping up again.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Every player has had some one helping them though, so Kobe helping Shaq really is not a legitimate argument. Lebron formed his own team of his own choice behind every one's back and sold the team to Pat Riley and still came up with only two of 4 championships. What does that say about his legacy?

No question about it, of all of them Michael Jordan was the best and still is the best, but

I would pick Kobe over Shaq because Kobe had the discipline and intensity that Shaq did lack some times. I think I might pick Shaq over Lebron who would be last in my book. Lebron is a good player but he's a guy you give him $1 and you get back three quarters in change.

Nothing more to be said about this topic...just

 

[trojanfan12]

It remains to be seen if Kobe can play this season, but in order to finish the season, I think he would have to see the Lakers land two really good players that could give them a big three. With the rookies in tow, the Lakers would have a core for the future and a legitimate shot in the players. For the record I do not consider Kevin Love or Rajon Rondo to be the two players the Lakers would need. I think the Lakers would need better than that. As far as the following year is concerned - I think that depends on how Kobe feels in his body and if his body is able to hold up. No one knows that now and it's all speculation though.

I agree. Regardless of who the Lakers get, for Kobe to make it through the season and play at a high level, his minutes will have to be managed. I'd like to see him averaging about 28-30 minutes a game and play about 65 games.

I'd sit him for 1 game of back to backs and the occasional game vs. lesser teams. I'd also manage his game minutes so that he can play at least 8-10 in the 4th quarter.

I agree re: Love/Rondo. They'd need to land Dragic, Gasol, LA, someone like that. Even then, they'd probably still need to land at least 1 more top FA and re-sign Kobe for 1 more season in the FA period after this one for him to truly have a shot another ring before he retires.

 

[trojanfan12]

Nothing more to be said about this topic...just

I would like to state for the record the I did NOT facepalm that TLF post.

Spoiler

"But I would have if I had seen it before Shane did."

 

[Shanemansj13]

So D-Wade AND Chris Bosh are chopped liver then? That's 4 out of the 5 straight Finals appearances right there. It was impressive when LBJ got the Cavs to the Finals the first time but the West demolished them. This year has been a very weak year for the East, if they manage to win against the Warriors then I'll be willing to give him a lot more credit.

If those Kobe teams during the mid-2000's were in the East then I believe he could have gotten them pretty deep into the playoffs as well. He almost knocked off the Suns single-handedly one year.

This year, yes, injuries have made the East kinda weak. And I am talking about the years he will his team to the championship not the Miami Heat years. He had a great team, even with injuries, Dallas and San Antonio were just greater teams.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Lebron played in one finals without the "help" that Kobe had. When he went to Miami, he joined 2 other all-stars. Considering that with the first 3 titles, it was Kobe, Shaq and bunch of role players and for the last 2 it was Kobe, Pau, a Bynum who couldn't stay healthy and role players, you could make a case that Kobe had less help than Lebron.

Outside of the one season in Cleveland when the Cavs made it, Lebron has always been part of a "big 3" where Kobe has been part of a "big 2." Heck, Lebron even set up a "big 3" this time around in Cleveland.

I'm not sure how Lebron in his prime and Shaq in his prime would have worked. Lebron has never really been that great of an outside shooter. He's gotten most of his points by driving to the basket. Shaq never ventured more than about 5-7 feet from the basket. Essentially, he would have been in Lebron's way.

I think Lebron and Shaq would have eventually made a great pairing because Lebron is a pretty smart player. He'd have figured out that he needed to improve his jumper to prevent teams packing the paint and started working on it earlier.

One season? Before Miami, he didnt have any help for what 7 years. He literally had one 1-time all star reserve on the roster. It was a 15-20 win team without him. I dont care who you play getting them to a ship and beating a championship team in the Pistons is way above expectations. He had no business in the Finals and honestly they have no business this year. In Miami, he had the help just got outplayed in the Finals.

 

[trojanfan12]

This year, yes, injuries have made the East kinda weak. And I am talking about the years he will his team to the championship not the Miami Heat years. He had a great team, even with injuries, Dallas and San Antonio were just greater teams.

The YEARS he willed his team to the championship?!? He did it once.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Of course Shaq saw more double and triple teams. He's a center, he played within a few feet of the basket. I'm pretty sure Duncan has seen more double and triple teams than Parker and Ginobili. Does that mean he had any more to do with their titles?

Kareem saw more double and triple teams than Magic.

Sometimes, it's about where a guy plays on the floor.

To answer your question, yes He did. Duncan is the most complete player on that team, well now Leonard possibly could be, but you know what I mean. Of course it takes a team effort, not arguing that at all.

 

[Shanemansj13]

The YEARS he willed his team to the championship?!? He did it once.

This year too.

 

[trojanfan12]

One season? Before Miami, he didnt have any help for what 7 years. He literally had one 1-time all star reserve on the roster. It was a 15-20 win team without him. I dont care who you play getting them to a ship and beating a championship team in the Pistons is way above expectations. He had no business in the Finals and honestly they have no business this year. In Miami, he had the help just got outplayed in the Finals.

And in those 7 years, he made the finals once. That was the only time he made the finals and didn't have arguably more help than Kobe.

So, of his 5 finals appearances prior to this one, he had more help than Kobe in 6 of his 7 and he is 2-3 while Kobe is 5-2.

I say 6 of 7 because Kobe had more help in 2004 when Payton and Malone joined Shaq and Kobe.

 

[trojanfan12]

This year, yes, injuries have made the East kinda weak. And I am talking about the years he will his team to the championship not the Miami Heat years. He had a great team, even with injuries, Dallas and San Antonio were just greater teams.

The East has been weak for several years.

 

[Shanemansj13]

And in those 7 years, he made the finals once. That was the only time he made the finals and didn't have arguably more help than Kobe.

So, of his 5 finals appearances prior to this one, he had more help than Kobe in 6 of his 7 and he is 2-3 while Kobe is 5-2.

I say 6 of 7 because Kobe had more help in 2004 when Payton and Malone joined Shaq and Kobe.

What are you talking about? Kobe had great teams in all his Finals appearances except maybe 1 year.

Lebron had less help than Kobe when he wasnt making it to the Finals and even when he made it that one year in Cleveland and it wasnt close.

 

[trojanfan12]

This year too.

Nah, he had Love and Kyrie for most of the regular season. They brought in JR and Shump who are veterans and have played well. Even with the injuries, this Cavs team is better than the one he dragged to the finals in his first go around in Cleveland.

Hell, having Kyrie alone makes this team much better than that one. What Lebron did in getting that other Cavs team to the finals was arguably one of the most amazing things in league history. He literally dragged what was essentially a D-league team to the finals. I actually liked him back then.

 

[trojanfan12]

What are you talking about? Kobe had great teams in all his Finals appearances except maybe 1 year.

Lebron had less help than Kobe when he wasnt making it to the Finals and even when he made it that one year in Cleveland and it wasnt close.

First 3 titles Kobe/Shaq/role players.
Last 2 titles Kobe/Pau/role players.

Those Lakers teams had 2 perennial all stars Kobe/Shaq and Kobe/Pau.

Lebron had no help in his first trip to the finals.

The next 4 trips to the finals Lebron/D-Wade/Bosh/role players
This year Lebron/Kyrie/Love/role players

Those Heat teams and this Cavs team had 3 perennial all stars on the team.

Kobe has had a "big 2" in 6 of his 7 finals appearances. Lebron has had a "big 3" in 5 of his 6 appearances.

3 > 2 = more help.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Nah, he had Love and Kyrie for most of the regular season hebrought in JR and Shump who are veterans and have played well. Even with the injuries, this Cavs team is better than the one he dragged to the finals in his first go around in Cleveland.

Hell, having Kyrie alone makes this team much better than that one. What Lebron did in getting that other Cavs team to the finals was arguably one of the most amazing things in league history. He literally dragged what was essentially a D-league team to the finals. I actually liked him back then.

Playoffs!!! haha

No doubt that was a larger feat, but he basically has no Kyrie for last two series, just some tough guys knocking down shots that play hard.

 

[Shanemansj13]

First 3 titles Kobe/Shaq/role players.
Last 2 titles Kobe/Pau/role players.

Those Lakers teams had 2 perennial all stars Kobe/Shaq and Kobe/Pau.

Lebron had no help in his first trip to the finals.

The next 4 trips to the finals Lebron/D-Wade/Bosh/role players
This year Lebron/Kyrie/Love/role players

Those Heat teams and this Cavs team had 3 perennial all stars on the team.

Kobe has had a "big 2" in 6 of his 7 finals appearances. Lebron has had a "big 3" in 5 of his 6 appearances.

3 > 2 = more help.

You forgot baby shaq, Bynum. He was force and you cant deny it.

And if we are talking about Finals, that meansno Love for this year and barely Kyrie. Doesn't count sorry.
Plus a "Big 2" or "Big 3" doesnt mean he had a better all-around team. You look at the rosters and then compare no very different buddy.

So Bosh and a hobbled Wade is equal to Shaq. Nice try, you had me there for a minute.

 

[trojanfan12]

Playoffs!!! haha

No doubt that was a larger feat, but he basically has no Kyrie for last two series, just some tough guys knocking down shots that play hard.

Kyrie on 1 leg is still better than anyone the Cavs had on that first finals team. I agree about some tough guys playing hard on this team though.