The NBA rookies Thread

[Mecca]

That's a pretty good comparison. Heck it wouldn't shock me if both of the career paths are somewhat similar.

I think it is a fair argument to talk about Mitchell's late game contributions. But I would also argue that the Jazz were an inherently good team. They won 51 games last year. Yes they lost Hayward. So that was certainly going impact their win count. And Mitchell helped replace a lot of that lost production. But the team will almost certainly wind up with considerably fewer wins than it had last year.

Conversely the Sixers won 28 games last year. They could wind up with 48 or so wins this year. That is a pretty dramatic improvement. Of course there are other variables with that as well. A full season of Embiid. Saric with a full season under his belt. JJ Reddick providing real perimeter scoring. So you certainly can't say that Simmons is the reason why the Sixers are so much better.

So ultimately it is hard to know how much of an impact either player really has had on their team. Mitchell has been money late in the game. But Simmons has been a really good game manager. I don't really know if you can determine who has had a bigger impact.

Yes, but the Sixers also won 28 games while Joel Embiid only played in 31 games. They also acquired JJ Redick. Just Embiid being there opens up the game for so many others that production can rise across the board.

I'm not detracting what Simmons has done so far. I think he's been amazing and has one of the highest ceilings of any NBA player in the league right now. In 3 years we might be talking about him easily as a top 10 player, if not higher if he can get a decent working outside shot.

The Jazz lost an All-star. To start the year Utah's o/u on wins was 38.5. The 76ers were at 40.5. Utah has actually exceeded expectations already and weren't pegged to be a playoff team. The 76ers were in most people's playoff brackets.

I think Simmons has had the impact that lots people expected versus Mitchell who nobody predicted. That's not to say one is more or less valuable based on that, but it will hold weight in the voters eyes.

Damn, both great arguments.

I think Simmons has the edge.

But, I would love for Donovan to win.

 

[CitySushi]

I didn't know that! Awesome!

The Mark Price trade was part of a long list of horrible moves that all looked the same.

Webber for Mitch Richmond
Rasheed Wallace for Rod Strickland
Rip Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse

I could go on....

They had 60% of the champ Piston starting 5.

Mitch Richmond traded for Billy Owens
Webber traded for Gugliotta, who was then traded for Donyell Marshall
Tim Hardaway and Chris Gatling(who also became an allstar) traded for Kevin Willis and Bimbo Coles
Chris Mullin traded to Indiana for Erick Dampier and Duane Ferrell
Latrell Sprewell traded for Chris Mills, Terry Cummings and John Starks

Don't even get me started on the draft.

 

[wildturkey]

Folks haven't mentioned this kid much lately. Even though he is out of the race, he is having a FANTASTIC season.

The talk died down some because he hit the rookie wall over the last month and a half. His shooting numbers dropped off quite a bit. But it looks like he might be breaking through it this last week or so

 

[tlance]

Yes, but the Sixers also won 28 games while Joel Embiid only played in 31 games. They also acquired JJ Redick. Just Embiid being there opens up the game for so many others that production can rise across the board.

I'm not detracting what Simmons has done so far. I think he's been amazing and has one of the highest ceilings of any NBA player in the league right now. In 3 years we might be talking about him easily as a top 10 player, if not higher if he can get a decent working outside shot.

The Jazz lost an All-star. To start the year Utah's o/u on wins was 38.5. The 76ers were at 40.5. Utah has actually exceeded expectations already and weren't pegged to be a playoff team. The 76ers were in most people's playoff brackets.

I think Simmons has had the impact that lots people expected versus Mitchell who nobody predicted. That's not to say one is more or less valuable based on that, but it will hold weight in the voters eyes.

Michell had Rudy Gobert and a team full of solid vets with experience the 6ers lack. He has been great, but Simmons has been better.

 

[tlance]

Mitch Richmond traded for Billy Owens
Webber traded for Gugliotta, who was then traded for Donyell Marshall
Tim Hardaway and Chris Gatling(who also became an allstar) traded for Kevin Willis and Bimbo Coles
Chris Mullin traded to Indiana for Erick Dampier and Duane Ferrell
Latrell Sprewell traded for Chris Mills, Terry Cummings and John Starks

Don't even get me started on the draft.

Yeah, but then you got Jerry West and your boys put it together.

 

[CitySushi]

Michell had Rudy Gobert and a team full of solid vets with experience the 6ers lack. He has been great, but Simmons has been better.

True on the vet experience, but Gobert has been injured a lot of this season. To date he's only played in 44 games.

I'm not arguing Donovan is deserving of the award just playing devil's advocate mostly on why I could potentially see him winning. There are lots of factors in both of the players favor.

 

[CitySushi]

Yeah, but then you got Jerry West and your boys put it together.

Well we actually had to have our shit owner at the time sell the team to Lacob, who had a direction for the team. At the time I really wanted Larry Ellison to buy the team because I thought he'd be the best fit. Turns out I was completely wrong.

 

[flyerhawk]

True on the vet experience, but Gobert has been injured a lot of this season. To date he's only played in 44 games.

The Jazz are 28-16 in games he has played in and 12-15 in games he has not.

I'm not arguing Donovan is deserving of the award just playing devil's advocate mostly on why I could potentially see him winning. There are lots of factors in both of the players favor.

He could definitely win the award. He's having a great year for a rookie.

I haven't watched enough Jazz basketball to really know how important Mitchell has been to the team. He shoots, a lot. Which is what they are asking him to do.

 

[Mecca]

The Jazz are 28-16 in games he has played in and 12-15 in games he has not.


He could definitely win the award. He's having a great year for a rookie.

I haven't watched enough Jazz basketball to really know how important Mitchell has been to the team. He shoots, a lot. Which is what they are asking him to do.

He's the new King in the 4th.

He is essential to that Team.

On a side note, Jae Crowder has been really good since the trade.

 

[Mecca]

Michell had Rudy Gobert and a team full of solid vets with experience the 6ers lack. He has been great, but Simmons has been better.

JJ Redick, Amir Johnson, Covington, Bayless aren't exactly scrubs.

 

[flyerhawk]

JJ Redick, Amir Johnson, Covington, Bayless aren't exactly scrubs.

Bayless is a scrub. Amir Johnson has been barely above scrub level. Reddick and Covington are important.

 

[flyerhawk]

He's the new King in the 4th.

He is essential to that Team.

On a side note, Jae Crowder has been really good since the trade.

I believe you and that is important. But I don't think we can completely discount the other 3rd quarters.

 

[Mecca]

I believe you and that is important. But I don't think we can completely discount the other 3rd quarters.

Oh, he's getting buckets then too.

But, during " winning time " with the game on the line, he is exceptional.

 

[Mecca]

Bayless is a scrub. Amir Johnson has been barely above scrub level. Reddick and Covington are important.

Amir is giving you 5 and 5 in less than 15 min.

Bayless is giving you 8 off tithe bench.

Nick Collison is a scrub.

Those guys are veteran rotation players for a few minutes a game that give your young horses rest.

 

[Mecca]

Uh, is this still a debate?

Predicting 2017-18 NBA All-Rookie Teams: Is Lonzo Ball on Ben Simmons' Level?

 

[Mecca]

 

[flyerhawk]

Oh, he's getting buckets then too.

But, during " winning time " with the game on the line, he is exceptional.

Before we go on, I just want to point out this is purely for discussion purposes. Who ultimately wins this award really doesn't matter.

So I did a bit of research..

Sortable NBA Player Clutch stats

This table does a per 36 minutes table for clutch time performances. Clutch time being defined 4th quarter or overtime with 5 minutes left and the score within 5 either way.

Mitchell is scoring 32 points per 36 in clutch time. That puts him at 14th in the league which is pretty impressive.
Ben Simmons scores a little over half that in clutch time at 18.

So clearly Mitchell scores more in clutch time. And that is important.

However if we do a little more digging, it becomes a little more muddied.

Mitchell shoots 28 shots per 36 in clutch time. His shooting % is 41% overall and 26% from 3. He does get 1.8 steals 3 rebounds and 4.5 assists but he also turns it over 4 times per 36.

Simmons only shoots 8 times per 36 at 66% shooting overall and obviously has a 0% from 3 since he hasn't taken a legitimate 3 all year. He gets 7 rebounds and 6 assists per 36. And he leads the league in steals per 36. He turns the ball over 3 times per 36.

They are both +12 in clutch time.

Does that really tell us anything? LOL, probably not. Just thought they were interesting stats. Mitchell definitely is the go to guy for the Jazz. Simmons continues to be the game manager for the Sixers with his stats really not changing a whole lot in clutch time.

 

[Mecca]

Before we go on, I just want to point out this is purely for discussion purposes. Who ultimately wins this award really doesn't matter.

So I did a bit of research..

Sortable NBA Player Clutch stats

This table does a per 36 minutes table for clutch time performances. Clutch time being defined 4th quarter or overtime with 5 minutes left and the score within 5 either way.

Mitchell is scoring 32 points per 36 in clutch time. That puts him at 14th in the league which is pretty impressive.
Ben Simmons scores a little over half that in clutch time at 18.

So clearly Mitchell scores more in clutch time. And that is important.

However if we do a little more digging, it becomes a little more muddied.

Mitchell shoots 28 shots per 36 in clutch time. His shooting % is 41% overall and 26% from 3. He does get 1.8 steals 3 rebounds and 4.5 assists but he also turns it over 4 times per 36.

Simmons only shoots 8 times per 36 at 66% shooting overall and obviously has a 0% from 3 since he hasn't taken a legitimate 3 all year. He gets 7 rebounds and 6 assists per 36. And he leads the league in steals per 36. He turns the ball over 3 times per 36.

They are both +12 in clutch time.

Does that really tell us anything? LOL, probably not. Just thought they were interesting stats. Mitchell definitely is the go to guy for the Jazz. Simmons continues to be the game manager for the Sixers with his stats really not changing a whole lot in clutch time.

So, all that says Mitchell is twice as clutch as Ben at the end of games when it comes to scoring?

I didn't need to read this block of text to know that....lol

* joking...I write books for posts*

In fairness, Ben is way more likely to have the game winning assist as he is to have the game winning score.

He's much more LeBron to Mitchell's Westbrook and I think that's a GOOD thing.

Why in the hell should he launch a game winning jumper when.....

1. That's not the strength of his game.

2. He has a stud center that can get buckets from all over the court.

3. He has JJ Reddick

The late game scoring is a feather in Donavan's cap. But, it doesn't detract away from the fact that Simmons is the better player.

As far as the award, I would give it to Ben.

But, I wouldn't be shocked if Mitchell wins.

Harden will get MVP. But, LeBron is still the best player.

Just like with Ben, we take James for granted.

 

[flyerhawk]

Uh, is this still a debate?

Predicting 2017-18 NBA All-Rookie Teams: Is Lonzo Ball on Ben Simmons' Level?

Good article. Surprised that Jordan Bell didn't even get a mention.

 

[Mecca]

Good article. Surprised that Jordan Bell didn't even get a mention.

It's...crazy!

I was reading a rookie ladder article that had Josh Jackson as the 4th best rookie.

Thoughts?

He has been getting numbers lately.

But, He had a BRUTAL start and they are so trash.

How can you put him ahead of Kuzma?

I don't know if I will put him over Fox and DSJ.