Skip Bayless: Talib is better than Sherman

[seahawksfan234]

Even Skip doesn't even believe that.

But it certainly appears that he has achieved his desired goal in saying it.

He says a lot of things that are controversial, I think he does it to generate attention. I can't remember his exact words, but he was trying to make the case that Kevin Durant was not a top 5 player in the NBA.

 

[tshirt]

Bottom line is this:

Manning has only had less than 40 pass attempts seven times this season:
35 pass attempts, 403 yards vs Chiefs
37 pass attempts, 374 yards vs Raiders
36 pass attempts, 330 yards vs Chargers
34 pass attempts, 327 yards vs Eagles
28 pass attempts, 266 yards vs Raiders
36 pass attempts, 230 yards vs Chargers (playoffs)
36 pass attempts, 150 yards vs Patriots

in that game vs the Pats, this is how the Bronco's "Big 4" did per the ESPN box score:
D Thomas -- 9 targets/4 catches (41 yds)
Welker -- 8 targets/4 catches (31 yds)
Decker -- 4 targets/1 catch (5 yds)
J Thomas -- out (knee injury)

as for Talib:

Boston.com:

"(Denver) Key cog, offense -- Demaryius Thomas, WR...Thomas led the team in targets, receptions, yards and touchdowns...Patriots cornerback Aqib Talib did a good job of containing Thomas in the previous meeting"

Good thing for the Broncos is they get another chance to play the Patriots, this time with J Thomas. Even without J Thomas, I would think the Broncos receivers would do better this time (can't do any worse than last time). We shall see how much better...

 

[JDM]

The gameplan was to have Denver run as much as possible. I wouldn't read too much into that when Denver ran almost at will.

It obviously worked out, but not solely because (an injured) Talib.

 

[Broncos6482]

haven't gotten a chance to read the thread, been away for a while. The year Welker has Matt Cassel at QB, he had the best WR of his era in Randy Moss taking away coverage from him. Like I said, put Welker without Brady or Moss and let's see how he does.

We did. 2008 he was without Brady. Most of 2010, and all of 2011 and 2012 he was without Moss. Do you know what or means?

 

[Broncos6482]

Bottom line is this:

Manning has only had less than 40 pass attempts seven times this season:
35 pass attempts, 403 yards vs Chiefs
37 pass attempts, 374 yards vs Raiders
36 pass attempts, 330 yards vs Chargers
34 pass attempts, 327 yards vs Eagles
28 pass attempts, 266 yards vs Raiders
36 pass attempts, 230 yards vs Chargers (playoffs)
36 pass attempts, 150 yards vs Patriots

in that game vs the Pats, this is how the Bronco's "Big 4" did per the ESPN box score:
D Thomas -- 9 targets/4 catches (41 yds)
Welker -- 8 targets/4 catches (31 yds)
Decker -- 4 targets/1 catch (5 yds)
J Thomas -- out (knee injury)

as for Talib:

Boston.com:

"(Denver) Key cog, offense -- Demaryius Thomas, WR...Thomas led the team in targets, receptions, yards and touchdowns...Patriots cornerback Aqib Talib did a good job of containing Thomas in the previous meeting"

Good thing for the Broncos is they get another chance to play the Patriots, this time with J Thomas. Even without J Thomas, I would think the Broncos receivers would do better this time (can't do any worse than last time). We shall see how much better...

This is ignoring the fact that the weather was bad and not conducive to passing the ball, especially considering that Denver was able to run the ball for nearly 300 yards, with Moreno alone going for over 200. Add in that getting Julius Thomas back makes Denver's passing game much better as well. Don't expect a repeat of that kind of performance.

 

[tshirt]

We did. 2008 he was without Brady. Most of 2010, and all of 2011 and 2012 he was without Moss. Do you know what or means?

that's what I've been wanting to ask this whole time. If i said let's see what Welker can do without Brady and Moss, you'd have a point. But I said let's see what Welker can do without Brady or Moss. I looked up Welker's career hoping to find he didn't do well the year Brady was out. He did. But I also saw he had Moss that year. That's why I've been saying Brady or Moss from the beginning, not Brady and Moss. Capiche?

 

[Broncos6482]

that's what I've been wanting to ask this whole time. If i said let's see what Welker can do without Brady and Moss, you'd have a point. But I said let's see what Welker can do without Brady or Moss. I looked up Welker's career hoping to find he didn't do well the year Brady was out. He did. But I also saw he had Moss that year. That's why I've been saying Brady or Moss from the beginning, not Brady and Moss. Capiche?

You're hopeless.

 

[cdumler7]

haven't gotten a chance to read the thread, been away for a while. The year Welker has Matt Cassel at QB, he had the best WR of his era in Randy Moss taking away coverage from him. Like I said, put Welker without Brady or Moss and let's see how he does.

So why the year before with Tom Brady did Moss have one of the best years by a receiver then follow it up with a good year but not great with Matt Cassel yet Wes Welker stayed almost exactly the same stats wise? Why then without Moss did Wes Welker have his two best years with the Patriots? Oh yeah that's right it is all because of Tom Brady.

Listen I agree that Welker only works well in certain offenses but when he is in those offenses he is a top 10 receiver in this league with what he brings to the table. He is a 3rd down machine that makes safeties have to respect his play over the middle helping take away coverage on the outside. I don't think he could make a great living being on the outside running the deep routes but there are also a lot of the big guys on the outside who could never do what Wes does on the inside.

 

[cdumler7]

that's what I've been wanting to ask this whole time. If i said let's see what Welker can do without Brady and Moss, you'd have a point. But I said let's see what Welker can do without Brady or Moss. I looked up Welker's career hoping to find he didn't do well the year Brady was out. He did. But I also saw he had Moss that year. That's why I've been saying Brady or Moss from the beginning, not Brady and Moss. Capiche?

So can we start saying that Brady couldn't do well without Bill Belicheck as his coach because we haven't seen what he can do without him. I guess that means that Brady is a terrible quarterback because we haven't seen that and that proves he sucks. Just using your logic here tshirt.

 

[tshirt]

You're hopeless.

Yes you are.

 

[tshirt]

So can we start saying that Brady couldn't do well without Bill Belicheck as his coach because we haven't seen what he can do without him. I guess that means that Brady is a terrible quarterback because we haven't seen that and that proves he sucks. Just using your logic here tshirt.

I would love to see how Brady does without Belichick. A lot of life is chance/luck/being in the right place at the right time... starting from when you were that one sperm out of a galaxy of sperm that squeezed into the egg

 

[JDM]

So why the year before with Tom Brady did Moss have one of the best years by a receiver then follow it up with a good year but not great with Matt Cassel yet Wes Welker stayed almost exactly the same stats wise? Why then without Moss did Wes Welker have his two best years with the Patriots? Oh yeah that's right it is all because of Tom Brady.

Listen I agree that Welker only works well in certain offenses but when he is in those offenses he is a top 10 receiver in this league with what he brings to the table. He is a 3rd down machine that makes safeties have to respect his play over the middle helping take away coverage on the outside. I don't think he could make a great living being on the outside running the deep routes but there are also a lot of the big guys on the outside who could never do what Wes does on the inside.

Because cassel didn't have the arm strength to get it to a triple teamed moss in places he could go get it, but teams still had to do it because double teamed, he'd make you pay.

Welker isn't a top ten receiver.

 

[cdumler7]

I would love to see how Brady does without Belichick. A lot of life is chance/luck/being in the right place at the right time... starting from when you were that one sperm out of a galaxy of sperm that squeezed into the egg

So let's just completely ignore the thought at hand and talk about sperm...nice deflection. Wes Welker has done things that no other receiver in history has done but somehow it is all about the talent around him. Somehow other players though get all the praise for what they bring to the team and how they make the players around them better. Now I do understand that Welker has been on some great teams and had great quarterback play. He has also been the 1 common denominator behind the 2 highest scoring offenses in NFL history. Not a single other common denominator other than him. Yet somehow he get's no credit for helping with that from you.

 

[Broncos6482]

Because cassel didn't have the arm strength to get it to a triple teamed moss in places he could go get it, but teams still had to do it because double teamed, he'd make you pay.

Welker isn't a top ten receiver.

Probably not, but has then been a better slot receiver since 2007? I would have to say no.

 

[cdumler7]

Because cassel didn't have the arm strength to get it to a triple teamed moss in places he could go get it, but teams still had to do it because double teamed, he'd make you pay.

Welker isn't a top ten receiver.

I guess it depends what you call a top 10 receiver these days. He is not the typical #1 receiver I will agree with that. He is not the deep threat or jump ball type receiver. What he does on 3rd down and over the middle of the field though has to count for something. Throw in this year he has actually become a red zone threat for the Broncos more than he ever was for the Patriots.

Now the Cassel thing this is just an example to me of why it is so tough to define what makes a great receiver. Cassel obviously has limitations but I think this is where Welker makes a name for himself that with just about every quarterback since 2007 (I guess 3 quarterbacks) he pretty much puts up exactly the same numbers at least in catches and yards. He is a dependable guy no matter who the quarterback is because his skill set fits well as a great trust worthy receiver for a quarterback when he needs a catch. (Yes I understand he drops some). Now I look at a guy like Moss and he like pretty much every receiver these days has to have a certain type of quarterback to maximize his talent. Cassel couldn't do that as his skill set did not fit well with that of Cassel's leading to a drop off in numbers compared to the year before with a quarterback who did.

 

[JDM]

Probably not, but has then been a better slot receiver since 2007? I would have to say no.

I don't disagree. He's good at what he does.

But you can't get over the hump if he's playing a bigger role than that. His limitations are too easy to abuse if you don't have outside guys to open him up. His hands really need to be much better for what he is.

 

[tshirt]

Welker has been the 1 common denominator behind the 2 highest scoring offenses in NFL history. Not a single other common denominator other than him.

I think the common denominator of HOF QB was the reason those offenses were so successful.

 

[JDM]

I guess it depends what you call a top 10 receiver these days. He is not the typical #1 receiver I will agree with that. He is not the deep threat or jump ball type receiver. What he does on 3rd down and over the middle of the field though has to count for something. Throw in this year he has actually become a red zone threat for the Broncos more than he ever was for the Patriots.

Now the Cassel thing this is just an example to me of why it is so tough to define what makes a great receiver. Cassel obviously has limitations but I think this is where Welker makes a name for himself that with just about every quarterback since 2007 (I guess 3 quarterbacks) he pretty much puts up exactly the same numbers at least in catches and yards. He is a dependable guy no matter who the quarterback is because his skill set fits well as a great trust worthy receiver for a quarterback when he needs a catch. (Yes I understand he drops some). Now I look at a guy like Moss and he like pretty much every receiver these days has to have a certain type of quarterback to maximize his talent. Cassel couldn't do that as his skill set did not fit well with that of Cassel's leading to a drop off in numbers compared to the year before with a quarterback who did.

But moss still opened him up significantly. He may not have put up the numbers, but Moss was every bit as valuable in '08 as he was in '07 IMO. Teams consistently rotated their coverages hugely in Moss's direction. Making teams do that so other guys get open is as important to a decent offense as putting up the stats is.

 

[cdumler7]

I think the common denominator of HOF QB was the reason those offenses were so successful.

So then why without Welker have they been less successful in their careers? Brady had his 50 touchdown season with Welker and now Manning had his 55 touchdown season with Welker. Brady just had his lowest touchdown total since the 2006 season which just so happens to be the year before Welker arrived. Now given I understand a lot of his talent around him left and Gronk being injured hurts that but usually talent around a HOF quarterbacks helps them to do well and Welker has done that for both Manning and Brady.

 

[JDM]

When you're third receiver is Welker, yeah, you're going to be successful. When your first receiver is, meh.

Brady didn't throw TDs as much because of the ease of running it in this year as anything else. This is one of the better ground games he has had and only a fool would worry about numbers instead of taking advantage of the talent on his team.