Jose Quintana traded to Cubs

[richig07]

White Sox really positioning themselves well for the future, IF Moncada doesnt completely bust......I know the Yankees are in talks with them on David Robertson, but i believe thats more of a salary dump than a big prospect haul

Robertson is still nasty. We just never get much of a chance to use him. Plenty of contenders that could use a closer like him. The Nationals being another one.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

What? How could you possibly not say the White Sox?

#1 and #2 prospects in the Cubs organization... two additional prospects. For a pitcher with a 4.50 ERA.

The White Sox got the Chris Sale haul all over again, for an "okay #2" or "very good #3".

Jiminez could be the real deal, but Cease has been in the cubs org for a long time and seems to have trouble getting into the 6th inning. He's supposed to be a TOR starter, but I doubt he even becomes a MOR starter. Personally, I think he is destined for the bull pen. The other two prospects are just throw ins who probably will never see the MLB. Jiminez is really the only thing the Cubs gave up, and his spot in the line up is currently blocked by heyward, Happ (who's probably a better all around prospect before getting promoted), Schwarber, Almora, and Jay. Jiminez could be a very good hitter, but like many great hitting prospects, he could bust too. Even if he does do well for the Sox, I still think this trade is better for the cubs. Q may not be a staff ace, but he's damn near close and he's tied up until 2020 on a very affordable contract, something that helps the Cubs out a lot too. Even though I am a biased cubs fan, I think it's a great deal for them.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

it would have been nice but I would not have been happy to give that much up for him

It's really not that much considering the cubs have a logjam in the outfield full of players tied up through 2020.

 

[richig07]

Jiminez could be the real deal, but Cease has been in the cubs org for a long time and seems to have trouble getting into the 6th inning. He's supposed to be a TOR starter, but I doubt he even becomes a MOR starter. Personally, I think he is destined for the bull pen. The other two prospects are just throw ins who probably will never see the MLB. Jiminez is really the only thing the Cubs gave up, and his spot in the line up is currently blocked by heyward, Happ (who's probably a better all around prospect before getting promoted), Schwarber, Almora, and Jay. Jiminez could be a very good hitter, but like many great hitting prospects, he could bust too. Even if he does do well for the Sox, I still think this trade is better for the cubs. Q may not be a staff ace, but he's damn near close and he's tied up until 2020 on a very affordable contract, something that helps the Cubs out a lot too. Even though I am a biased cubs fan, I think it's a great deal for them.

Q is a serviceable #2 and a very good (ideally) #3.

You don't give up your #1 and #2 prospects for that. I don't care what the MLB situation is. You don't just throw away a guy like Jiminez, and your top pitching prospect. With two throw-ins to boot.

There does not exist a universe where this is a better deal for the Cubs. I'm fine with somebody saying that the Cubs are doing what they have to do to win right now. However, the White Sox got the Sale haul all over again, for a pitcher with a 4.50 ERA. That is the definition of executing a fantastic deal.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

Simply because it's a different time of year, doesn't mean they didn't overpay.

You can say he will be "reborn"... but he hasn't been good. Period. That's a leap of faith.

Baseball is the most streaky of sports. If you based all your trades off of numbers, you'd have a team full of one year wonders. Q has the talent to excel. You trade for the talent and hope he puts up the numbers.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

Q is a serviceable #2 and a very good (ideally) #3.

You don't give up your #1 and #2 prospects for that. I don't care what the MLB situation is. You don't just throw away a guy like Jiminez, and your top pitching prospect. With two throw-ins to boot.

There does not exist a universe where this is a better deal for the Cubs. I'm fine with somebody saying that the Cubs are doing what they have to do to win right now. However, the White Sox got the Sale haul all over again, for a pitcher with a 4.50 ERA. That is the definition of executing a fantastic deal.

I don't rate Jiminez as high as moancada and Kopech is worlds better than Cease. Jiminez was the Cubs last prospect in the Cubs organization that could net a good player in return. With the outfielders the Cubs are committed to, it was clear Jiminez was most likely going to be traded. The white Sox got a lot more talent from the Red Sox than they did the Cubs. Heck, the Yankees got more talent for a chapman rental than the Cubs gave for ~3 years of Q.

 

[richig07]

Baseball is the most streaky of sports. If you based all your trades off of numbers, you'd have a team full of one year wonders. Q has the talent to excel. You trade for the talent and hope he puts up the numbers.

All trades are based off of numbers in baseball...

Secondly, we've seen Q's ceiling. He's been very consistent at being "solid". Nothing more, nothing less. He's "good". A #2 for most teams, and a #3 in a good staff.

Also, you were pretty misleading about Cease. He's 21 years old, was on the verge of being called up and has 12.3 K/9, with a 2.57 ERA in his 3 years in the minor leagues. lol. Not really worried about a guy that young having a little bit of problems going deep into starts.

You know who can't go deep into starts? Quintana, and he's 28.

 

[richig07]

I don't rate Jiminez as high as moancada and Kopech is worlds better than Cease. Jiminez was the Cubs last prospect in the Cubs organization that could net a good player in return. With the outfielders the Cubs are committed to, it was clear Jiminez was most likely going to be traded. The white Sox got a lot more talent from the Red Sox than they did the Cubs. Heck, the Yankees got more talent for a chapman rental than the Cubs gave for ~3 years of Q.

He's going to be traded, fine. However, you don't just deal him... for the sake of dealing him. The Cubs got way less than he's worth. Than your top pitching prospect on top of him?

You can check the White Sox forum, and the year long thread. We had given up on getting anything for Q. Much less this haul the Cubs ponied up.

I don't think you understand that a week ago, if you would have said that the White Sox would get ONLY Cease for Q. We would have been happy. To get a top 10 prospect in all of baseball for him, AND Cease? Wow.

The only way I think this trade is even, is if you can convince Q is a #1. Which I don't think there is a case for.

I mean, it's fine... We always see this. Teams buying have to overpay a bit at the deadline for pitching, out of a little bit of desperation. It is what it is, the Cubs will 100% be okay. However, we need to call this what it is... IMO. The Cubs overpaying.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

All trades are based off of numbers in baseball...

Secondly, we've seen Q's ceiling. He's been very consistent at being "solid". Nothing more, nothing less. He's "good". A #2 for most teams, and a #3 in a good staff.

Also, you were pretty misleading about Cease. He's 21 years old, was on the verge of being called up and has 12.3 K/9, with a 2.57 ERA in his 3 years in the minor leagues. lol. Not really worried about a guy that young having a little bit of problems going deep into starts.

You know who can't go deep into starts? Quintana, and he's 28.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. The White sox won't know how the deal was for another few years. A great prospect could be the next babe Ruth or a zero and anything in between. Q gives the Cubs a reliable lefty starter. That's huge considering the road to the World Series goes through the dodgers.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

He's going to be traded, fine. However, you don't just deal him... for the sake of dealing him. The Cubs got way less than he's worth. Than your top pitching prospect on top of him?

You can check the White Sox forum, and the year long thread. We had given up on getting anything for Q. Much less this haul the Cubs ponied up.

I don't think you understand that a week ago, if you would have said that the White Sox would get ONLY Cease for Q. We would have been happy. To get a top 10 prospect in all of baseball for him, AND Cease? Wow.

The only way I think this trade is even, is if you can convince Q is a #1. Which I don't think there is a case for.

I mean, it's fine... We always see this. Teams buying have to overpay a bit at the deadline for pitching, out of a little bit of desperation. It is what it is, the Cubs will 100% be okay. However, we need to call this what it is... IMO. The Cubs overpaying.

They certainly didn't under pay, but I think you're blowing how much the Cubs overpaid out of porportion. All of the talking heads seem to agree it was pretty fair.

 

[richig07]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. The White sox won't know how the deal was for another few years. A great prospect could be the next babe Ruth or a zero and anything in between. Q gives the Cubs a reliable lefty starter. That's huge considering the road to the World Series goes through the dodgers.

Well, you're 100% right that we can only wait and see. That's always the case.

However, if you're just looking at it based on current value for those assets. Jiminez, Cease and two toss-ins should net you a 24 year old Michel Fulmer. Not a 28 year old Jose Quintana.

Again, the Cubs will come away from this fine, because they're a young club on the big league level. I'm not arguing that this was a damaging move, and I agree that it helps them in an area of great need now.

It's just a lot man. I like Q, but I was surprised to hear that he was even traded today. Much less what we got. He's really struggling, and if he was going to be an ace. He would have been by now.

 

[navamind]

Cubs Accurately Rate Underrated Jose Quintana | FanGraphs Baseball

Even with a meh first half in 2017, Quintana has the 7th most WAR among SP since the beginning of 2013. He's been a very good pitcher. Combine that with a team friendly contract for 3.5 years, and yeah, the White Sox are going to be looking for a pretty big return.

 

[richig07]

They certainly didn't under pay, but I think you're blowing how much the Cubs overpaid out of porportion. All of the talking heads seem to agree it was pretty fair.

Fair enough, but the talking heads I listen to were worried Q may have pitched his way out of having any value on the trade market. Like I said, the deal does help the Cubs now.

You guys should have taken Shields off of our hands. lol. He actually hasn't been too bad this year. Maybe one or two more "Big games" left in him.

 

[navamind]

Jiminez could be the real deal, but Cease has been in the cubs org for a long time and seems to have trouble getting into the 6th inning. He's supposed to be a TOR starter, but I doubt he even becomes a MOR starter. Personally, I think he is destined for the bull pen. The other two prospects are just throw ins who probably will never see the MLB. Jiminez is really the only thing the Cubs gave up, and his spot in the line up is currently blocked by heyward, Happ (who's probably a better all around prospect before getting promoted), Schwarber, Almora, and Jay. Jiminez could be a very good hitter, but like many great hitting prospects, he could bust too. Even if he does do well for the Sox, I still think this trade is better for the cubs. Q may not be a staff ace, but he's damn near close and he's tied up until 2020 on a very affordable contract, something that helps the Cubs out a lot too. Even though I am a biased cubs fan, I think it's a great deal for them.

But don't most A/low A pitchers average 4-5 innings per game? Cease has some command issues, but he also has very high strikeout rates.

 

[richig07]

Cubs Accurately Rate Underrated Jose Quintana | FanGraphs Baseball

Even with a meh first half in 2017, Quintana has the 7th most WAR among SP since the beginning of 2013. He's been a very good pitcher.

Yeah, those deep into the saber-metric community have been tugging themselves off to Quintana for years, and it's never really panned out like they keep saying it will.

He's a good pitcher. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[navamind]

Yeah, those deep into the saber-metric community have been tugging themselves off to Quintana for years, and it's never really panned out like they keep saying it will.

He's a good pitcher. Nothing more, nothing less.

?

He has a career 3.51 ERA and 115 ERA+ despite having some god awful defensive teams behind him. He's also pitched 200+ innings over each of the last four seasons. That's a very good #2 pitcher and would be the #1 pitcher on a decent amount of teams. He might not be an elite pitcher, but he's still been one of the best pitchers in the AL over the last 4-5 years. A #2 pitcher is very valuable.

 

[molsaniceman]

maybe cubs should have waited

According to ESPN's Jerry Crasnick, there is "increasing buzz" that the Rangers will listen to trade offers on Yu Darvish and Cole Hamels.

Texas is currently 16 1/2 games back of the Astros in the American League West standings but only three games behind in the crowded AL Wild Card hunt. The next two weeks will determine if the Rangers are going to be buyers or sellers at the July 31 trade deadline. Darvish, an impending free agent, owns a 3.49 ERA, 1.129 WHIP, and 125/41 K/BB ratio in 118 2/3 innings (19 starts) this season. Hamels carries a $23.5 million guaranteed salary in 2018 and a $20 million club option for 2019. He also has a 20-team no-trade clause.

 

[navamind]

Hamels and Darvish have their share of risks as well IMO. Hamels is coming off an injury and he's seen his walk rate spike since leaving Philly. Darvish missed all of 2015 and missed a good chunk of 2016 with TJS and he's seen his strikeout rate dip from 11.8 to 9.5 (still good, but that's a pretty big decline over just one year). Darvish is also a rental.

 

[richig07]

?

He has a career 3.51 ERA and 115 ERA+ despite having some god awful defensive teams behind him. He's also pitched 200+ innings over each of the last four seasons. That's a very good #2 pitcher and would be the #1 pitcher on a decent amount of teams. He might not be an elite pitcher, but he's still been one of the best pitchers in the AL over the last 4-5 years. A #2 pitcher is very valuable.

Yes, like I said. He's a good pitcher.

He's a #2 in a decent rotation, and a #3 in a truly top-level rotation.

He has a career 3.51 ERA and 115 ERA+ despite having some god awful defensive teams behind him.

Yes, exactly. He's solid. He's consistent. He's not great. He's a very good pitcher for 5-6 innings. I'd also be interested in seeing how his numbers stack up against some of the better offenses in baseball during his career. It sure seems like he makes his paycheck shutting down lesser offenses, and failing to rise to the occasion very often against the best offensive clubs.

... and... he's been downright poor this year. Which is something you're not accounting for. His trade value was down. Most of the talk surrounding the White Sox was that they wouldn't get much of anything for him at this stage.

The top two prospects in the Cubs organization, is a lot for a solid #2.

 

[richig07]

maybe cubs should have waited

According to ESPN's Jerry Crasnick, there is "increasing buzz" that the Rangers will listen to trade offers on Yu Darvish and Cole Hamels.

Texas is currently 16 1/2 games back of the Astros in the American League West standings but only three games behind in the crowded AL Wild Card hunt. The next two weeks will determine if the Rangers are going to be buyers or sellers at the July 31 trade deadline. Darvish, an impending free agent, owns a 3.49 ERA, 1.129 WHIP, and 125/41 K/BB ratio in 118 2/3 innings (19 starts) this season. Hamels carries a $23.5 million guaranteed salary in 2018 and a $20 million club option for 2019. He also has a 20-team no-trade clause.

Darvish is weird. He can be an elite level pitcher for a period of time, and then have a couple horrific blow-up outings.