I found a tough stretch in Denver schedule

[TDs3nOut]

If Broncos fans are going to throw a hissy fit anytime a poster does not share the same views on their team as they do, I suggest you stay on your team board where everyone agrees with each other.

LOL I don't think that I've thrown a "hissy fit" by pointing out that there is a common theme in several threads that you started during the past couple of weeks: Denver/PM is going to fail. You have been wrong so far. Hope it's not too impolite of me to also point that out. LOL

I don't object to people expressing the dogmatic view that PM is a great regular season QB who is doomed to fail in the playoffs. It ignores a number of highly relevant facts, but its simplicity seems to be "intellectually" irresistible to simpletons.

Go ahead and keep making threads about how the Broncos are going to lose. You might eventually get one of your predictions right, in which case your dogmatic view will coincide with what is actually observed. As I mentioned before (and I think you should acknowledge), the odds increasingly favor making a correct prediction the more predictions that you make.

 

[MileHigh64]

The greatest argument to the ole "one and done" in the playoffs is that Peyton Manning has been to two Superbowls and he won one of them. There are many all-pro quarterbacks who never got to the big dance at all, let alone hoisted a Lombardi. Peyton has been on some teams that had some bad playoff losses, but no matter what happens, he will go down as a Superbowl winning quarterback. All the nit-picking in the world will never change that. I think Peyton's pretty comfortable with his career to date and is focused on getting back to the big game.

As for the remaining schedule, there are some tough games in there. Indy, NE, KC, Houston will all offer challenges. It's tough to win in the NFL all the time and the Broncos are bound to drop a few games along the way.

 

[TDs3nOut]

The greatest argument to the ole "one and done" in the playoffs is that Peyton Manning has been to two Superbowls and he won one of them. There are many all-pro quarterbacks who never got to the big dance at all, let alone hoisted a Lombardi. Peyton has been on some teams that had some bad playoff losses, but no matter what happens, he will go down as a Superbowl winning quarterback. All the nit-picking in the world will never change that. I think Peyton's pretty comfortable with his career to date and is focused on getting back to the big game.

As for the remaining schedule, there are some tough games in there. Indy, NE, KC, Houston will all offer challenges. It's tough to win in the NFL all the time and the Broncos are bound to drop a few games along the way.

Ignorance of that fact is where I find that the dogmatic view first hits a critical snag. Pretty strong evidence that anyone claiming to know that Manning will lose in the playoffs because has in the past is ignoring something relevant. What could that be?

 

[Broncos6482]

Through 5 games the 2007 Pats gave up 65 points. The Broncos have given up 139. Only Jacksonville has given up more in the AFC.

With 16 games of tape good defenses like the ones Peyton will find in the playoffs will slow him down, much like the Chargers and Giants slowed down the Pats in 2007. At some point Denver will need to rely on their defense.

This is true, their defense is definitely going to have to play better if the Broncos are going to win a Super Bowl. That said, the total number of points is a little misleading for three reasons. First, how many of those points came in garbage time? I'd conservatively say 31 (10 against Baltimore, 7 each against the Giants, Raiders, and Eagles). Now I know those points count, but it's human nature to let up when you're way ahead late in games. But if you do take away those points, that puts them at 6th in the AFC in points allowed. So I'm not going to totally freak out about their defense for giving up some garbage time touchdowns.

The second reason is we still haven't seen this defense with everybody back. Von Miller really is a huge difference maker and one man wrecking crew, and once he's back he'll greatly improve the pass rush and allow the Broncos to get pressure without so much blitzing. Getting Champ Bailey back will also drastically help out the secondary, and it will also allow Chris Harris to move to the nickel, where he's better, and it will push Tony Carter to the bench, who's been by far our biggest weakness in the secondary.

The third reason is that the Broncos defense has done ok every game until this Dallas game. But the Dallas game was an example of a combination of extreme circumstances that is unlikely to happen again. First, they were playing a high powered offense. Even if you take away the 48 they scored against Denver, they were averaging 26 points per game which would put them at 8th in points per game. Secondly, as mentioned, the Broncos went into the game without Champ and Von. Thirdly, they lost 3 key starters to injury during the game; their best pass remaining pass rusher, their best remaining corner, and middle linebacker and defensive captain and leader. That's 5 key starters missing from your defense. How many times will that happen? How many defenses would look good minus their two best corners, their two best pass rushers, and their defensive captain and signal caller? I'm guessing not too many.

I guess my point is, yes, Denver needs to improve on defense, but I'm not too worried about it yet because I think the numbers lie. That said, I don't care who's injured but if the Broncos give up a lot of points to the Jaguars, then I'll start to worry.

 

[Broncos6482]

As far as the Manning conversation goes, I'll add my 2 cents in. Personally, I don't think he's as bad in the playoffs as his critics would have you believe, nor do I think he's to be completely absolved of blame for his poor record in the playoffs as his fans would like. His 9-11 record isn't all his fault, but he's certainly to blame for some of it. That said, John Elway was 7-7 in the playoffs before his final two years and he finished his career with a 14-7 playoff record and two Super Bowl championships. I think Manning has already cemented himself as the greatest regular season qb of all time, but if he wants to shed that regular season label, he's going to have to win at least another Super Bowl and maybe 2. Anyone arguing he's guaranteed to fail in the playoffs strictly because he has in the past is as dumb as someone arguing he's guaranteed to win a Super Bowl because he has in the past.

 

[TDs3nOut]

As far as the Manning conversation goes, I'll add my 2 cents in. Personally, I don't think he's as bad in the playoffs as his critics would have you believe, nor do I think he's to be completely absolved of blame for his poor record in the playoffs as his fans would like. His 9-11 record isn't all his fault, but he's certainly to blame for some of it. That said, John Elway was 7-7 in the playoffs before his final two years and he finished his career with a 14-7 playoff record and two Super Bowl championships. I think Manning has already cemented himself as the greatest regular season qb of all time, but if he wants to shed that regular season label, he's going to have to win at least another Super Bowl and maybe 2. Anyone arguing he's guaranteed to fail in the playoffs strictly because he has in the past is as dumb as someone arguing he's guaranteed to win a Super Bowl because he has in the past.

This post reminds me of what I consider another deficiency of the dogmatic view, namely, that it ignores that a QB is likely to face superior defenses (and even entire teams) in playoff games than he faces in regular season games. Seems that a likely implication of that observation is that it might not be too meaningful to compare a team's winning percentage in the regular season to its winning percentage in the playoffs. let alone for an individual player, even a QB.

 

[bksballer89]

Here is where Bronco fans have a huge problem with people talking about Manning and the playoffs...He has a better quarterback rating in the playoffs than guys like Tom Brady. It is not Manning that is always choking in the playoffs it is his team. When you score 35 points in a playoff game you kind of expect to win 9 times out of 10 but for Manning somehow his team can find ways to lose those games whether it be giving up a 70 yard bomb with less than a minute to go or his coach deciding to call a timeout when time is running out and his team has the lead giving the opposing team an extra possession which lead to a game winning field goal. Those are the kind of things that have happened to Peyton in the playoffs that he cannot control. So saying "Manning been a consistent failure in the playoffs--this is a proven fact" is just idiotic at the very core of that word.

Technically Peyton only scored 21 in that game as Denver had 2 returns for a TD

 

[Broncos6482]

Technically Peyton only scored 21 in that game as Denver had 2 returns for a TD

The point is the team scored 35 and that should have been enough for a win.

 

[JDM]

Here is where Bronco fans have a huge problem with people talking about Manning and the playoffs...He has a better quarterback rating in the playoffs than guys like Tom Brady. It is not Manning that is always choking in the playoffs it is his team. When you score 35 points in a playoff game you kind of expect to win 9 times out of 10 but for Manning somehow his team can find ways to lose those games whether it be giving up a 70 yard bomb with less than a minute to go or his coach deciding to call a timeout when time is running out and his team has the lead giving the opposing team an extra possession which lead to a game winning field goal. Those are the kind of things that have happened to Peyton in the playoffs that he cannot control. So saying "Manning been a consistent failure in the playoffs--this is a proven fact" is just idiotic at the very core of that word.

He's not as bad as some imply, but if you go through the losses, a lot are pretty securely on him. Most of the rest he had shots to win.

 

[hockey878]

He's not as bad as some imply, but if you go through the losses, a lot are pretty securely on him. Most of the rest he had shots to win.

Pre 2005 I'd agree. Since 2005 this is absolutely untrue.

 

[JDM]

Pre 2005 I'd agree. Since 2005 this is absolutely untrue.

Go game by game. Find film if you can. The number post 2005 that he has personally found ways to lose is too high.

 

[hockey878]

Again....

2005-06: Vanderjagt shanks a field goal. Oline plays horrendous. The whole dungy son death thing definitely played a role. Steelers go on to win superbowl.
06-07: Won the super bowl. In what was ironically one of peytons worst years in the playoffs... hmm maybe winning is a team thing?
07-08: The defense can't manage to stop BILLY VOLEK. There was even a 3rd and 20 he converted.
08-09: 3rd and 2 at their own 10 or so. Gijon Robinson doesn't move when the ball is snapped peyton throws it away. chargers kick FG to go to OT, colts never get the ball. Nearly every colts drive started inside their own 10 yard line.
09-10: Colts lose in the SB. yes we know the pick, but there were a few other crucial plays in that game everyone seems to overlook along with the fact that the d couldn't stop brees for shit.
10-11: Colts go up with less than a minute to go in the game before allowing a GW drive by sanchez... caldwell calls the boneheaded timeout.
12-13: Rahim Moore goes full idiot mode.

Was Tom Brady a better QB from 06 to now? Or from 2001-2005? Just curious... because anyone with a brain would say he is better now, yet he is 0-2 in the SB since then and has had some pretty horrific playoff performances. Interesting...

 

[TDs3nOut]

... hmm maybe winning is a team thing?

Always amazes me just how under appreciated that point is, even among folks who have watched a lot of football.

 

[boltfan72]

Again....

2005-06: Vanderjagt shanks a field goal. Oline plays horrendous. The whole dungy son death thing definitely played a role. Steelers go on to win superbowl.
06-07: Won the super bowl. In what was ironically one of peytons worst years in the playoffs... hmm maybe winning is a team thing?
07-08: The defense can't manage to stop BILLY VOLEK. There was even a 3rd and 20 he converted.
08-09: 3rd and 2 at their own 10 or so. Gijon Robinson doesn't move when the ball is snapped peyton throws it away. chargers kick FG to go to OT, colts never get the ball. Nearly every colts drive started inside their own 10 yard line.
09-10: Colts lose in the SB. yes we know the pick, but there were a few other crucial plays in that game everyone seems to overlook along with the fact that the d couldn't stop brees for shit.
10-11: Colts go up with less than a minute to go in the game before allowing a GW drive by sanchez... caldwell calls the boneheaded timeout.
12-13: Rahim Moore goes full idiot mode.

Was Tom Brady a better QB from 06 to now? Or from 2001-2005? Just curious... because anyone with a brain would say he is better now, yet he is 0-2 in the SB since then and has had some pretty horrific playoff performances. Interesting...

You forgot about the INT in overtime that put the Ravens in position for the win.

 

[boltfan72]

hmm maybe winning is a team thing?

Agreed. The one year he had a stout defense in the playoffs is the year he won the Super Bowl. Sure he can't do it himself, and the defenses he faces in the playoffs are bound to be better.

Which brings me back to my earlier point. Denver cannot continue to have the 2nd worst scoring defense in the AFC, behind only Jacksonville, and depend on Manning to put up monster numbers in every playoff game to overcome it.

Fortunately for Denver, there's time to fix the defense.

 

[JDM]

Of course it's a team game, but he literally gave away the winning score in at least two of those games you're blaming on others.

He also had a chance in almost every single other game. Be objective. I dare you.

 

[Phillip Oliver Holz]

This Broncos team will go down as one of the best single season teams in the history of the universe.

 

[TDs3nOut]

Agreed. The one year he had a stout defense in the playoffs is the year he won the Super Bowl. Sure he can't do it himself, and the defenses he faces in the playoffs are bound to be better.

Which brings me back to my earlier point. Denver cannot continue to have the 2nd worst scoring defense in the AFC, behind only Jacksonville, and depend on Manning to put up monster numbers in every playoff game to overcome it.

Fortunately for Denver, there's time to fix the defense.

Agreed. Getting Miller and Bailey on the field will also presumably help.

 

[Nipsey]

This Broncos team will go down as one of the best single season teams in the history of the universe.

I agree, that's how it's looking.

 

[boltfan72]

Agreed. Getting Miller and Bailey on the field will also presumably help.

I'll be interested to see how effective Miller is with everything he's been through.

Honestly how effective do you think Bailey will be? He's had some rough games the last couple of years and has had trouble staying healthy.