Hue Jackson fired.....

[Servo]

Carson will not be cut. If there's a team out there that wants his services, they'll lowball the Raiders, but they'll give up a pick for him, and the Raiders will hold out for it. I could easily see the 49ers offering a 2nd round pick for Carson especially if their offense can't generate anything against the Saints this Saturday.

As for that "monotone, INT machine", he was still in the top 10 in most statistical categories (ypg, ypa, ypc, TD/g...top 5 in some of these) and top 15 in every other (comp%). The only exception being interceptions for mostly obvious reasons. He is no longer a top tier QB nor a hot commodity because of what he once was and what people remember him as, but he isn't a QB whose services teams could not use.

Well he is monotone and not a charasmatic guy. Also, I'm guessing that he's pretty high in INT's per attempt and pick 6's...So if a team wants a QB that does not take the bull by the horns in terms of leadership, is immobile, throws a ton of INT's but does some other things pretty well then I guess Palmer is their guy. I think San Fran is pretty happy with Smith...only team I could see interested is Seattle but they may very well draft their QB. Plus they gave up alot for Whitehurst so they may be a little gun shy.

 

[flamingrey]

He doesn't show very much emotion on the field, but many players and analysts for that matter called him a leader when he was on the Bengals, and Raiders players raved about his leadership role in the short time he's been there and how he was doing a great job mentoring the receivers. He's not a leader in the way a Tebow or a Brady are, but the whole non-leader thing is mostly a concoction of Bengals fans' imaginations. Not surprisingly.

With the exception of the 6 interceptions he threw in his first 2 games - go figure - and the 4 against the ball-hawking Packers that put up 34 points in the first half and whom he was playing against with his #3, #4, and #5 receivers, Carson was not an interception liability. Not in the slightest. In 7 other games, he had 6 interceptions and 9 TDs. And this from a player who didn't know the playbook and still played several other games with a number of missing receiving options and his #1 RB. I wouldn't consider that an "INT machine".

Again, he's not top tier, but he's without question at the very least above average.

 

[Servo]

It seems like in every reply defending what Carson has actually done in the last few years there are qualifying remarks or cherry picking of stats (i.e. the picks werent his fault, WR's ran wrong routes, despite evidence that he's not a take charge guy X player says he's great..honestly what do people expect his teamates and coaches to say?). The numbers are what they are. True, some of the INT's in Cinci may have been off WR's hands but every other QB has that too. Different place, same story...same old Carson. Honestly, I think Carson's biggest issue is confidence. I think from the neck up he needs to be a little tougher. What do they say as far as QB's go..they need to have short memories. If I'm Oak I give him another year. They have good WR's and plus, what choice do they really have? Give him a training camp etc and hope that Carson steps up his game.

 

[DanBengalfan]

He doesn't show very much emotion on the field, but many players and analysts for that matter called him a leader when he was on the Bengals, and Raiders players raved about his leadership role in the short time he's been there and how he was doing a great job mentoring the receivers. He's not a leader in the way a Tebow or a Brady are, but the whole non-leader thing is mostly a concoction of Bengals fans' imaginations. Not surprisingly.

With the exception of the 6 interceptions he threw in his first 2 games - go figure - and the 4 against the ball-hawking Packers that put up 34 points in the first half and whom he was playing against with his #3, #4, and #5 receivers, Carson was not an interception liability. Not in the slightest. In 7 other games, he had 6 interceptions and 9 TDs. And this from a player who didn't know the playbook and still played several other games with a number of missing receiving options and his #1 RB. I wouldn't consider that an "INT machine".

Again, he's not top tier, but he's without question at the very least above average.

When McFadden is back, Carson will look much better. Bush is good too, but defenses have to pay more attention to McFadden/Bush than they do Bush/whomever.

2012 will be Carson's year to either prove that yes, he would have won the superbowl had he not gotten kimo'd, or for certain that he's good, but not consistent.

 

[flamingrey]

It seems like in every reply defending what Carson has actually done in the last few years there are qualifying remarks or cherry picking of stats (i.e. the picks werent his fault, WR's ran wrong routes, despite evidence that he's not a take charge guy X player says he's great..honestly what do people expect his teamates and coaches to say?). The numbers are what they are. True, some of the INT's in Cinci may have been off WR's hands but every other QB has that too. Different place, same story...same old Carson. Honestly, I think Carson's biggest issue is confidence. I think from the neck up he needs to be a little tougher. What do they say as far as QB's go..they need to have short memories. If I'm Oak I give him another year. They have good WR's and plus, what choice do they really have? Give him a training camp etc and hope that Carson steps up his game.

The problem stems from people not having watched the games and simply looking at stats without considering any circumstances and drawing conclusions to support their own bias.

When someone's assessment of a guy who played pretty well is "throws a ton of INT's..." and a nonchalant "...but does some other things pretty well," it speaks towards that bias. Sure he threw a ton of interceptions but he is very good - not just pretty well...though that does sound better to make a point - at many things he does as he showed this season.

As a result, naturally any response to such is going to be in "defense".

That said, throwing 4 interceptions 5-6 games (for him) into the season is never excusable no matter the circumstances and it was not my intention to excuse it. I was simply refuting the comment that he was an "INT machine" and my intention was only to show that just because he threw 4 interception in one game, it doesn't automatically mean he's an "INT machine" or he's still the QB we saw in the previous season. It was a horrible game, and that was it, no need to find a deeper meaning. And this is also why I followed it up with the fact that in 7 out of 9 games (or 77.8% of his games) as a starter, he threw only 6 interceptions. An "INT machine" does not do that. If you disagree with that assessment, feel free to say so, but let's make this about anyone else.

"True, some of the INT's in Cinci may have been off WR's hands but every other QB has that too. Different place, same story...same old Carson."

In each of the last 5 seasons TO was in the league, more balls were intercepted thrown to him than any other WR in the league. And this was with 3 different QBs in that 5 year span. Not-so-surprisingly, 11 of Carson's 20 interceptions were on targets to TO. So, no, I'd have to disagree with the assessment that "every other QB has that too".

Now, you can take that as me running to his defense or you can maybe add that additional perspective to your opinion and see the other viewpoint and realize while the guy does throw some balls every game that makes you cringe, over the course of the last 2 seasons, he's also just had some pretty crappy luck. But to each their own.

 

[Servo]

Rey, you are a Carson aplogist...but a very articulate one. Bottom line is that it's been put up or shut up time for Carson for years. At this point I think he's generally considered to be a bottom tier QB. I making the assumption that most NFL personnel people do not view him as a guy to build a franchise around. More of a guy that can get you some wins and hold down the fort while you find your franchise QB. I did watch him play this year for the Raiders and yeah...the games I saw him play in he made some beautiful throws and some really poor decisions that a guy that's been playing as long as he has ought not to make. Again, same old Carson.

 

[flamingrey]

That's fine, but even the stats disagree with you.

No franchise has ever built around a guy that is 30+ and obviously passed his prime. Carson is now a guy teams with a crappy QB but a ton of talent otherwise will take a shot on in the hopes he can put them over the top. Kind of like a Kurt Warner. Nobody has ever suggested otherwise. Oakland will probably continue to take their shot, and if not, I could see SF making a run at it.

 

[Servo]

what stats would disagree? I mean the guy has thrown a ton of picks, right? Where does he rank in TD/INT ratio, picks thrown and pick 6's. I'm assuming that he's pretty high in each category.

For 2010, you can blame some of his picks on TO. That being said I'm sure some of those picks were squarley on Carson's shoulders. Plus, we all saw Carson play in 2010. He was terrible.

 

[flamingrey]

We've already agreed he threw a lot of picks. So any other INT related stat is obviously going to be bad.

Outside of the picks, Carson played pretty well. 4000 yards, 62% completion, 26 TDs. That's a pretty good QB. Definitely not terrible.

The only other concern was his sporadic arm, much of which he put to rest this season.

edit: as I've argued in the past, the fact that the interceptions were going for 6 was mostly due to scheme. If you throw an interception on an out-route at the sideline, unless it's downfield or the receiver has the presence of mind to become a defender, it is going for 6. Brat loved his out-routes. I believe Carson only threw 1 pick 6 this season and that was the first game where he came in in the 3rd quarter. Point being, while Pick 6's are of the worst kind, they aren't because they're doing something worse than any other QB.

 

[futballiscool]

As the other resident Palmer apologist, it's interesting that for yrs there was debate as to whether Chad's poor route running skills played a factor in his performance..

they won't even let Chad on the field in NE because of his poor route running skills and lack of understanding of the offense.

Palmer's WRs in his last two yrs in Cincy are either in forced retirement (TO, Coles) or riding the bench in a place where perfection is demanded (Chad in NE).

He played ever yr of his career with the same OC even though the offense's effectiveness had been in decline since 05.

My arguement isn't that Palmer's good, he's just been in bad circumstances. It's more or less that he's been in a dysfunctional situation so it's impossible to say one way or the other. Most people think he's terrible, so I know I'm in the minority. I'm a fan of his, what can I say?

And the situation in Oakland (coming in mid-season to learn a new team, scheme etc on the fly with injured skill players) was probably worse.

 

[cincygrad]

He also has had his fair share of pick 6 plays because he is slow and can't tackle. Often the quarterback is the last line of defense.

My big issue with Palmer is his consistency from one game to the next. In 05 and 06 he had stretches of brilliance - Not single games. Over the past 3 or 4 years, it's rare that he has played three or four straight games with a qb rating over 85. I think if you want to install him as the qb on a contender, you have to question whether he can get hot and stay hot through the postseason.

 

[Cincyfan78]

As some stated when he was drafted...the talent is there with the arm and ability...if the situation is right. He's a system guy.

When forced to think on the fly, adapt, and over-come other people's short-comings, he doesn't fare as well. He's doesn't have the adaptability of a Brees or a Brady. But, because of his big arm, and ability to push the ball down field, he's always going to be a decent enough QB, but for him to reach elite status he's got to have just about everything around him be pretty darn near perfect...re: 2005.

 

[kramer1]

Palmer sucks. Quit over-analyzing something that doesn't warrant it. Oakland lost 4 of it's last 5 games.

13 TD's, 16 INT's, All that needs to be said.

Here's a neat stat. INT%. His highest ever was this season. He's not a starter in this league anymore. We fleeced them. Jackson lost his job because it too.

 

[vancelot23]

SF would be stupid to trade for Palmer. Smith managed games perfectly and allowed the defense to dominate games. Palmer turn it over more, which would hurt the defense, putting them in more "short field" situations. Why change what worked so well this year?

 

[kramer1]

SF would be stupid to trade for Palmer. Smith managed games perfectly and allowed the defense to dominate games. Palmer turn it over more, which would hurt the defense, putting them in more "short field" situations. Why change what worked so well this year?

They won't.

 

[flamingrey]

SF would be stupid to trade for Palmer. Smith managed games perfectly and allowed the defense to dominate games. Palmer turn it over more, which would hurt the defense, putting them in more "short field" situations. Why change what worked so well this year?

I bet they find out pretty shortly that Smith won't cut it in the playoffs against the top notch teams: Green Bay or New Orleans.

 

[vancelot23]

Yeah and Palmer solves that problem

 

[flamingrey]

He adds the passing element to their offense to compliment the run game. Hence, a more dynamic offense.

 

[Tubbs1518]

He also produces more turnovers, hence hurting the team. and SF doesn't exactly have a deep threat for Palmer to hit. Their best WR is a possession guy.

 

[Tubbs1518]

Also we have already seen what Palmer could do against GB.