Detroit Tigers Ongoing 2016 Thread

[Howie115]

See.. the fact is that rotation never existed. Verlander didn't start until June. Lobstein was in the opening day rotation not Verlander.

The opening day starting rotation last year was

price
sanchez
simon
greene
lobstein

When was it known that Verlander would be on the DL? I thought March sometime. Smitty said "at this time last year".

 

[MiamiVice]

When was it known that Verlander would be on the DL? I thought March sometime. Smitty said "at this time last year".

verlander was injured in march.. so i guess if you are going to go off that.. then yes.. he would be in the rotation.. but the reality of the situation is.. he wasn't in the opening day rotation and really didn't get into form until July. The Tigers had Lobstein/ Farmer/Ryan starting in those months.

 

[MiamiVice]

I don't see anyway you can compare what the Tigers had pitching last year to this years rotation. As soon as greene fell apart the rotation was a complete shit show and the bullpen was not strong enough to absorb the innings.

 

[Howie115]

Verlander will pitch 30 games and and have an era under 3.25 and will win 16+ games

Verlander's WHIP was 1.088 last season. Limited games, yes, but that was his best since 2012 and the third-best of his career. His 2.2 walk rate was his lowest since 2011. His strikeout rate isn't back to where it was, but it did inch up (7.6 vs. 6.9 in 2014). Not logging the innings in 2014-15 that he did earlier in his career is a blessing that I think will pay off.

 

[Howie115]

I don't see anyway you can compare what the Tigers had pitching last year to this years rotation. As soon as greene fell apart the rotation was a complete shit show and the bullpen was not strong enough to absorb the innings.

Agreed, the expected opening-day rotation this season is easily well above what the Tigers started with on Opening Day 2015.

 

[MiamiVice]

Agreed, the expected opening-day rotation this season is easily well above what the Tigers started with on Opening Day 2015.

The fact the tigers were in first place in may last year honestly is unbelievable when you look at who was starting those games. The thing is that the starters were all going 6+ innings and not over working the bullpen.. the second Greene went down... the bullpen started getting over worked and it never recovered.

I know tigers fans don't like joe nathan.. myself included.. but the bullpen was much worse last year because he was not a part of it. If nathan was the closer and soria was the 8th inning guy.. everything would have been different.

 

[broncosmitty]

#1 -- Zimmerman < Price
#2 -- 2016 Verlander > 2015 Verlander
#3 -- 2016 Sanchez > 2015 Sanchez (only because he CAN'T be worse, good lord, I hope)
#4 -- Pelfrey = Simon
#5 -- Norris > Greene

IMHO of course, but I see it as overall better. I said in spring training last year that Simon only had one flukey-good season as a starter, and did not expect much from him (look it up), so that one is NOT 20/20 hindsight. I did expect more from Greene, but I also expect the same or better from Norris.

Based on what he showed me late last year (velocity up, walks down), I think Verlander still has one or two All-Star caliber seasons in him. No, not 2011-12 level seasons, but a couple of very good ones.

I definitely don't need to look it up. Lol. You didn't like Simon anymore than I did.

I guess we're furthest apart on Sanchez. It's been back to back years of missing nearly a third of the season. And I just don't see him rebounding to form. I did have hopes for that at this time last year.

JV is about equal right now for me. I gave him a pass for battling back and thru an injury that should have sidelined him longer than it did the previous year. I honestly consider him out #1 right now. With JZ being a very good #2 option. (But I'm cautious with him changing leagues. Still, even with being cautious, I like him a lot. That was an excellent signing imo.)

Longterm I like Norris a lot over Green. But Indont see him making any big jump this year. He could though. Was more optimistic with innings from SG tbh.

The lack of a true, top of the line Ace is tough to get past for me. And no, I don't consider JV that anymore and never did with Zim. Not cutting him down, very few ever get to that level.

 

[broncosmitty]

verlander was injured in march.. so i guess if you are going to go off that.. then yes.. he would be in the rotation.. but the reality of the situation is.. he wasn't in the opening day rotation and really didn't get into form until July. The Tigers had Lobstein/ Farmer/Ryan starting in those months.

Price, JV, Sanchez, Green/Simon would be what I meant with "at this time last year." JV was ready to go up until just a week before camp broke, I think. Seems like I was watching the day he felt "tightness" or whatever it was. Then they shut him down. I didn't see that coming. Was hopeful for a rebound year.

I would be more than shocked if anyone came near Price in innings, ERA or Ks.

 

[MiamiVice]

i would only give the white sox in our division as having a better #1 starter than verlander.. and in the entire AL.. add Boston and Seattle... As far as the AL goes.. Verlander is still one of the top pitchers in the league.

 

[broncosmitty]

The fact the tigers were in first place in may last year honestly is unbelievable when you look at who was starting those games. The thing is that the starters were all going 6+ innings and not over working the bullpen.. the second Greene went down... the bullpen started getting over worked and it never recovered.

I know tigers fans don't like joe nathan.. myself included.. but the bullpen was much worse last year because he was not a part of it. If nathan was the closer and soria was the 8th inning guy.. everything would have been different.

I didn't dislike the bullpen heading into the season. I mean, I was no fan of Nathan, but wasn't concerned that we'd have such issues at the back end. With or without him.

Greene going down would be the equivalent of Pelfry sucking up the joint, or going down. To me. Hence my concern for adding such an awful backend option. Their innings matter just as much as an Aces. Every starter inning is an inning that isn't taxing the bullpen. Need as many as possible.

 

[MiamiVice]

I don't see the Tiger's bullpen imploding like it did last year. Its not even a question. They have a ton more depth this year than last. The biggest x factor might be Fulmer pitching out of the pen later in the year. Outside of that... the tigers have some nice young arms that could end up pitching out of the pen if needed this year... I wouldn't be surprised to see Paul Voelker or joe jimenez this year at all. I think Jeff Ferrell will be much better the second time up also. Joe Mantilply was a buzz prospect last year and had a solid year in AAA.. as a lefty reliever we will probably see him too this year.

 

[MiamiVice]

I didn't dislike the bullpen heading into the season. I mean, I was no fan of Nathan, but wasn't concerned that we'd have such issues at the back end. With or without him.

Greene going down would be the equivalent of Pelfry sucking up the joint, or going down. To me. Hence my concern for adding such an awful backend option. Their innings matter just as much as an Aces. Every starter inning is an inning that isn't taxing the bullpen. Need as many as possible.

greene going down was a HUGE factor... because lobstein was already up filling in for Verlander.. which forced the tigers to field a rotation with BOTH Farmer and Lobstein in it.. and at times.. Ryan and Farmer.

 

[broncosmitty]

i would only give the white sox in our division as having a better #1 starter than verlander.. and in the entire AL.. add Boston and Seattle... As far as the AL goes.. Verlander is still one of the top pitchers in the league.

Maybe he can get back into that Top Ten area, idk. but I definitely don't see him being there right now.

Several recent CYs who are younger and don't have to get back, just keep going. And several more who are on their way to upper level consideration.

Time is not on Verlanders side.

 

[MiamiVice]

The injuries that happened to the rotation tore the bullpen apart. They were eating innings like crazy before Verlander came back.

 

[broncosmitty]

greene going down was a HUGE factor... because lobstein was already up filling in for Verlander.. which forced the tigers to field a rotation with BOTH Farmer and Lobstein in it.. and at times.. Ryan and Farmer.

Right.

 

[MiamiVice]

Maybe he can get back into that Top Ten area, idk. but I definitely don't see him being there right now.

Several recent CYs who are younger and don't have to get back, just keep going. And several more who are on their way to upper level consideration.

Time is not on Verlanders side.

i am talking AL only.. in the AL.. there is not even 5 starters who are better than he is.. let alone 10.

 

[broncosmitty]

i am talking AL only.. in the AL.. there is not even 5 starters who are better than he is.. let alone 10.

Price
Sale
gray
Archer
Keuchel
Kluber
Felix

There's 7. (All younger as well.)Archer i think is debatable. But career paths are going in different directions.

Quintana will most likely give Chicago more innings than JV. But he's not overpowering, so I won't say better. And wouldn't even just for argument.

Carrasco is below JV now, but for how long idk. I'm not saying he's better. Just has the potential to raise his game imo.

I don't consider Ventura better, just throwing that out there. Lol

So I'll give you Top Ten.

 

[MiamiVice]

Price
Sale
gray
Archer
Keuchel
Kluber
Felix

There's 7. (All younger as well.)Archer i think is debatable. But career paths are going in different directions.

Quintana will most likely give Chicago more innings than JV. But he's not overpowering, so I won't say better. And wouldn't even just for argument.

Carrasco is below JV now, but for how long idk. I'm not saying he's better. Just has the potential to raise his game imo.

I don't consider Ventura better, just throwing that out there. Lol

So I'll give you Top Ten.

I will give you gray and felix... and i am on the fence about keuchel.. i am not going to give you archer or kluber. if you honestly are expecting archer or kluber to have a better season than verlander you really are pessimistic. Kluber had one season as a true ace. Archer still hasn't had one.

 

[broncosmitty]

I will give you gray and felix... and i am on the fence about keuchel.. i am not going to give you archer or kluber. if you honestly are expecting archer or kluber to have a better season than verlander you really are pessimistic. Kluber had one season as a true ace. Archer still hasn't had one.

I guess if that's what you consider pessimistic then.

Not sure anyone outside of a Tigers fan would be anything but a pessimist in your eyes with that line of thinking. (Kluber is top ten in CYA the last two years. And has a better career ERA than JV. He also has Kd more in the last two years than JV has in any two year period of his career. JV did, in the past, log more innings. That was awhile ago now.)

I'm not certain of Keuchel being great, but I'd take him over JV at this point. Age being a definite factor there.

 

[broncosmitty]

So your best pitchers in the AL list would go:
Sale
Felix
gray
JV
?

No price even?