2018 QB Class 10 strong

[gkekoa]

How bout this.............................

Kirk Cousins is more Alex Smith and Sam Bradford than Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady. At times it seemed McVay and/or Gruden tried making him into a top five QB with an out of whack Run/Pass ratio. All that did though was help contribute to the Skins losing football games.

Someone said it earlier. He's a good QB. Not really really good, not great, not elite, but good. That's how he should be paid imo......as a good QB.

You have to look at third downs. The Colt defense was on the field less than the Skins even though we moved the ball better.

I never said the Colt OL was better. I said Luck made them appear worse. His injuries are a result of himself.

 

[Stymietee]

I have to agree that, whatever Kirk gets paid, especially if he's momentarily the highest paid in the game is a bad argument, and one that I've never made part of my argument on the subject. If the organization wants to pay him whatever they deem he's worth based upon their evaluation, so be it.

To me, when we turn to this argument, and we often do, we totally miss the mark, so let me ask in case I'm missing something. To the guys who are saying that cousins shouldn't be the highest paid in the league or, that he's not worth being paid beyond his actual determined value, does this mean that you believe that teams or the entire league is attempting to reel in the skyrocketing costs for QB's?

 

[Breed]

does this mean that you believe that teams or the entire league is attempting to reel in the skyrocketing costs for QB's?

Not really. I think the owners are good with paying/overpaying for what, 5 or so of the 22 starting positions. STs.

The 5 positions being - QB, blindside OT, pass rushing OLB/DE, shutdown CB and #1WR.

 

[Stymietee]

Not really. I think the owners are good with paying/overpaying for what, 5 or so of the 22 starting positions. STs.

The 5 positions being - QB, blindside OT, pass rushing OLB/DE, shutdown CB and #1WR.

OK, so if they decide to "overpay" Cousins.....the objection is?????

 

[Breed]

OK, so if they decide to "overpay" Cousins.....the objection is?????

The only thing that concerns me far as paying Cuz is. Overpay him and somewhere down the road we won't be able to make this move or that move as too much money was tied up going to one player.

If you're gonna pay someone like they can take over a game, or they can put the entire team on their back and carry them. They should actually possess these qualities. Simply put, I don't think Cuz is capable of it. I have no issues whatsoever if I'm wrong though. Hell, I'd rather be wrong and see Cuz blossom into a stud. I just have my doubts about that is all.

 

[Ruzious]

The only thing that concerns me far as paying Cuz is. Overpay him and somewhere down the road we won't be able to make this move or that move as too much money was tied up going to one player.

If you're gonna pay someone like they can take over a game, or they can put the entire team on their back and carry them. They should actually possess these qualities. Simply put, I don't think Cuz is capable of it. I have no issues whatsoever if I'm wrong though. Hell, I'd rather be wrong and see Cuz blossom into a stud. I just have my doubts about that is all.

Yup, that's where I am. You just said it better. There's value in what he is - a good solid NFL QB - but he's not likely going to carry the team, and his salary would prevent them from doing things they'd otherwise be able to do.

 

[gkekoa]

The only thing that concerns me far as paying Cuz is. Overpay him and somewhere down the road we won't be able to make this move or that move as too much money was tied up going to one player.

If you're gonna pay someone like they can take over a game, or they can put the entire team on their back and carry them. They should actually possess these qualities. Simply put, I don't think Cuz is capable of it. I have no issues whatsoever if I'm wrong though. Hell, I'd rather be wrong and see Cuz blossom into a stud. I just have my doubts about that is all.

But follow the logic...we have franchised him for the last two seasons. If we had offered him 19 to 20 million per season in 2016 instead of franchising him, we would have saved 4 million against this season's cap and even more in the coming seasons. Even if we sign him at 23 million per season now, we save likely 2 million on next season's cap and even more after. The longer we wait, the more we franchise him, the more it hurts our cap situation, and if your worries about FAs are legitimate, then it hurts us to not sign him now because we aren't just going to let him go.

So far, we have overpaid according to some the last two seasons and we still signed Norman to the highest CB salary and overpaid McGee and more this season. We have also made Jordan Reed one of the most wealthy TEs in the league even though he can't stay healthy.

 

[j_y19]

SO I asked this question earlier and didn't see a response. Is Stafford worth it? Carr? Have they shown they can carry the team by themselves? How about Ryan?

 

[Sharkinva]

Yup, that's where I am. You just said it better. There's value in what he is - a good solid NFL QB - but he's not likely going to carry the team, and his salary would prevent them from doing things they'd otherwise be able to do.

Like what?? Who have we NOT been able to sign because of Kirks salary?? Mind you he is on the books for $24M this year, and as was stated he was on the books for $20M last year and we made Josh Norman the highest paid corner in the league.

So unless the real issue is, you would rather keep trying to luck into an elite QB, the well his contract will hamper us elsewhere really doesnt hold much water. All but one of our rookies is signed, we still have $5M in cap space and room to make more if needed. Mind you this is WITH Kirk currently making $24M.

Now I get it when people say, I just dont think he is worth the contract you think he is asking for. But saying that contract will some how send us into a situation where we are cap strapped just doesnt match the numbers. Not unless we need boat loads of free cap space to make another Haynesworth type deal. The only way Kirks contract would do that type of damage is if he failed so miserably that we had to cut him after one season.

 

[Stymietee]

The only thing that concerns me far as paying Cuz is. Overpay him and somewhere down the road we won't be able to make this move or that move as too much money was tied up going to one player.

If you're gonna pay someone like they can take over a game, or they can put the entire team on their back and carry them. They should actually possess these qualities. Simply put, I don't think Cuz is capable of it. I have no issues whatsoever if I'm wrong though. Hell, I'd rather be wrong and see Cuz blossom into a stud. I just have my doubts about that is all.

I've already stated that, like former GM SM, that I believe Kirk has reached his ceiling. Although it's not a bad ceiling, it's also not an irreplaceable one that too many see as catastrophic if he decides to bolt. This to me is at the heart of the entire contract debate. There's a market that says a starting QB gets, blah, blah, blah, but nowhere does the market dictate that its the ONLY way to properly value the individual QB. It's quite clear to me that...this is what's happening with Kirk. I agree that Kirk is not capable of taking over a game on his talents alone, and maybe that puts you and I in step with the thinking in Ashburn (fuck!!), but it's also important that we here not fool ourselves into thinking that a deal will eventually get done and all will be well. I am one who expects the very worse from these jokers and not set myself up for the nearly annual disappointment. Better to be pleasantly surprised than bitterly disappointed time and again because I failed to prepare myself for their shit!!

 

[Ruzious]

Like what?? Who have we NOT been able to sign because of Kirks salary?? Mind you he is on the books for $24M this year, and as was stated he was on the books for $20M last year and we made Josh Norman the highest paid corner in the league.

So unless the real issue is, you would rather keep trying to luck into an elite QB, the well his contract will hamper us elsewhere really doesnt hold much water. All but one of our rookies is signed, we still have $5M in cap space and room to make more if needed. Mind you this is WITH Kirk currently making $24M.

Now I get it when people say, I just dont think he is worth the contract you think he is asking for. But saying that contract will some how send us into a situation where we are cap strapped just doesnt match the numbers. Not unless we need boat loads of free cap space to make another Haynesworth type deal. The only way Kirks contract would do that type of damage is if he failed so miserably that we had to cut him after one season.

All of the good contracts we signed were ONE YEAR CONTRACTS. And yes, I was yelling for effect. Did it work?

I want to be able to re-sign them if they play well. They're going to cost a lot more if they play well.

 

[Sharkinva]

All of the good contracts we signed were ONE YEAR CONTRACTS. And yes, I was yelling for effect. Did it work?

I want to be able to re-sign them if they play well. They're going to cost a lot more if they play well.

I will ask you again, WHY wont we be able to resign them?? We gave Norman a $50M guarantee, his cap number last year... $8M. Even if we gave Kirk $34M straight up on the tag, that still leaves $21M in cap space. But the reality is, if he is signed long term, his cap number for 2018 should be around $20M leaving us $35M in cap space....


So again not really an issue. Now sure it would be great to have $50M in cap space... but do you really think we are going to have or need to bring in a FA thats going to take up $30M off the break unless of course its a QB in any case??

Mind you my numbers also assume we dont carry not a single dollar of cap space from this year over into 2018.

So unless you think we are going to go back into the win the off season sign all the big named FA's $21M should be more than enough.

 

[ehb5]

OK, I really don't have an issue with this. He is more Alex Smith than Tom Brady (I take exception with Bradford, he has done nothing in the league). How about Stafford? Is he better, around the same, or worse. Does he deserve to be paid at the top? What is the current market value for a "good" QB?

Off topic but Ill take Bradford over Smith any day. I cant stand Smith as a QB.

 

[ehb5]

I will ask you again, WHY wont we be able to resign them?? We gave Norman a $50M guarantee, his cap number last year... $8M. Even if we gave Kirk $34M straight up on the tag, that still leaves $21M in cap space. But the reality is, if he is signed long term, his cap number for 2018 should be around $20M leaving us $35M in cap space....


So again not really an issue. Now sure it would be great to have $50M in cap space... but do you really think we are going to have or need to bring in a FA thats going to take up $30M off the break unless of course its a QB in any case??

Mind you my numbers also assume we dont carry not a single dollar of cap space from this year over into 2018.

So unless you think we are going to go back into the win the off season sign all the big named FA's $21M should be more than enough.

How much would we have assuming we have extensions coming up for Crowder, Scherff, at least one of Doctson or Pryor? Serious Q.

I assume we would still have some space for FAs and certainly wouldnt be in cap hell. But money spent on Kirk is money not spent somewhere else. Doesnt mean it isnt worth it, but its true.

 

[Sharkinva]

How much would we have assuming we have extensions coming up for Crowder, Scherff, at least one of Doctson or Pryor? Serious Q.

I assume we would still have some space for FAs and certainly wouldnt be in cap hell. But money spent on Kirk is money not spent somewhere else. Doesnt mean it isnt worth it, but its true.

Lets say we gave Scherff a little more than we gave Moses.. so Im going to say $4M
Crowder a deal like Garcon got, so $6.5
Doctson is a non factor because he is not a FA until 2020 annd even then we have the 5th year option
And lets say we gave Pryor the same deal as Garcon as well $6.5

So thats $17M out of what should be around $35M if we signed Kirk long term.

So that would leave in 2018 AFTER these signings around $18M, again this is MORE than we had on the books when we signed Norman and assumes we go heavy in the first year of the deal.

 

[ehb5]

Lets say we gave Scherff a little more than we gave Moses.. so Im going to say $4M
Crowder a deal like Garcon got, so $6.5
Doctson is a non factor because he is not a FA until 2020 annd even then we have the 5th year option
And lets say we gave Pryor the same deal as Garcon as well $6.5

So thats $17M out of what should be around $35M if we signed Kirk long term.

So that would leave in 2018 AFTER these signings around $18M, again this is MORE than we had on the books when we signed Norman and assumes we go heavy in the first year of the deal.

Those seem like optimistic numbers for Crowder and Pryor, no?

 

[Sharkinva]

Those seem like optimistic numbers for Crowder and Pryor, no?

Why?? Crowder is a slot WR. I dont see him getting into the AB or AJ Green realm of contracts. Pryor MIGHT, but realistically thats going to mean he had an all pro year. Meaning likely Kirk also had a damn near all pro type year. But lets say We are going to let Kirk walk and Pryor just had an all pro year and is a free agent, think we stand a better chance of keeping him with Kirk, or a rookie??

 

[ehb5]

Why?? Crowder is a slot WR. I dont see him getting into the AB or AJ Green realm of contracts. Pryor MIGHT, but realistically thats going to mean he had an all pro year. Meaning likely Kirk also had a damn near all pro type year. But lets say We are going to let Kirk walk and Pryor just had an all pro year and is a free agent, think we stand a better chance of keeping him with Kirk, or a rookie??

Wait was that the number from the most recent Garcon contract (the one with SF) or the one he signed when he came here?

And I'm a huge crowder fan. I dont think he has to play the slot and I'm being he could get PAID in FA. Hopefully he stays and we don't find out though.

 

[Sharkinva]

Wait was that the number from the most recent Garcon contract (the one with SF) or the one he signed when he came here?

And I'm a huge crowder fan. I dont think he has to play the slot and I'm being he could get PAID in FA. Hopefully he stays and we don't find out though.

The Garcon number was from his recent contract.


Pierre Garcon Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money | Over The Cap

His cap number is $6.425 this year. NOw Crowder likely gets a bit more being younger and all. But I dont think he gets up into the AB range of $17M a year. And if he is that good, even with Kirk under contract (if that happens) there are moves that could be made to make it work.

 

[Sportster 72]

I've already stated that, like former GM SM, that I believe Kirk has reached his ceiling. Although it's not a bad ceiling, it's also not an irreplaceable one that too many see as catastrophic if he decides to bolt. This to me is at the heart of the entire contract debate. There's a market that says a starting QB gets, blah, blah, blah, but nowhere does the market dictate that its the ONLY way to properly value the individual QB. It's quite clear to me that...this is what's happening with Kirk. I agree that Kirk is not capable of taking over a game on his talents alone, and maybe that puts you and I in step with the thinking in Ashburn (fuck!!), but it's also important that we here not fool ourselves into thinking that a deal will eventually get done and all will be well. I am one who expects the very worse from these jokers and not set myself up for the nearly annual disappointment. Better to be pleasantly surprised than bitterly disappointed time and again because I failed to prepare myself for their shit!!

Former GM SM who drafted Alex Smith No 1 and signed Matt Flynn?