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2018 QB Class 10 strong

j_y19

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Admit what? The flyer Shanny took out on Cuz was one of the very few good moves made by Shanny when he was the Skins HC?

Shrugs............OK.
Actually, the offensive scheme they devised for RG3 year 1 was masterful. And I'm not so sure taking KC was a flyer move.
 

Sportster 72

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Actually, the offensive scheme they devised for RG3 year 1 was masterful. And I'm not so sure taking KC was a flyer move.

Agree 100%. When I saw the Redskins had drafted Cousin's in the 4th round I knew Shanahan was not fully in on Griffin. Cousin's was insurance in a pro-style QB way. I also agree that Kyle should be given a lot more credit for the offense they devised for Griffin. If you were to go back and long Griffin was terrible in pre-season games playing in a conventional offense. I remember Doc Walker saying a couple of times "that is not what they are running in practice."
 

gkekoa

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Agree 100%. When I saw the Redskins had drafted Cousin's in the 4th round I knew Shanahan was not fully in on Griffin. Cousin's was insurance in a pro-style QB way. I also agree that Kyle should be given a lot more credit for the offense they devised for Griffin. If you were to go back and long Griffin was terrible in pre-season games playing in a conventional offense. I remember Doc Walker saying a couple of times "that is not what they are running in practice."

Kyle Shanahan has the best offensive mind since Norv Turner and he is headed for Bill Walsh territory. That is why I was hoping Kyle was the future HC here.
 

Breed

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Actually, the offensive scheme they devised for RG3 year 1 was masterful.

I've read they simply borrowed heavy from Art Briles and that Baylor offense he ran. Sure though. It was a good move (I heard it was Kyle's idea) to go that route.

And I'm not so sure taking KC was a flyer move.

So how does it work? What's the cut-off?

Was Belichick just lucky for nabbing Brady in rd 6? And Shanny is what? Insightful? Prudent? For taking Kirk in the 4th?
 

Sharkinva

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Was Belichick just lucky for nabbing Brady in rd 6? And Shanny is what? Insightful? Prudent? For taking Kirk in the 4th?


I know you will disagree, so I wont be shocked.

But a little bit of both actually.

Brady was drafted under the rules of the first CBA and also played under the rules of the second CBA in 2006. Now here is why that is important.

As of the most recent CBA QBs are NOT allowed to come in on their own time and do film study with coaches. This matters because MOST of the elites in the league right now ( pocket passer types that is) where known for coming in during the off season on thier own time to get new playbook updates and go over film with QB Coaches, OCs and in some cases head coaches.

This list would include Brady, both Mannings, Brees, Rothlisberger and to a degree Rogers.

Now of the new guard of elites, (Newton, Marriota, Wilson, Wentz) Most of these guys are more athletic than pocket passer.

So I wont say Darth Hoodie was just plain lucky, but he was fortunate to bring Brady in during the time period that he did. And it didnt hurt to have what at the time was considered an elite QB on roster already.


As for the question, was Shannahan insightful??? Dude seriously... when was the last time a team drafted a QB in the top two of the draft, then drafted another QB in the same draft. I think that showed a bit of insight.
 

j_y19

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I've read they simply borrowed heavy from Art Briles and that Baylor offense he ran. Sure though. It was a good move (I heard it was Kyle's idea) to go that route.



So how does it work? What's the cut-off?

Was Belichick just lucky for nabbing Brady in rd 6? And Shanny is what? Insightful? Prudent? For taking Kirk in the 4th?
Actually, I do think that Shanny was insightful in taking KC (BTW, I wasn't sold on this pick when he did it). Clearly he had concerns over RG3. He knew he had to have a backup plan. He had be quoted before the draft in praising KC. So, no, I dont think it was a fluke and that he stumbled on to KC.
 

Sharkinva

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Actually, I do think that Shanny was insightful in taking KC (BTW, I wasn't sold on this pick when he did it). Clearly he had concerns over RG3. He knew he had to have a backup plan. He had be quoted before the draft in praising KC. So, no, I dont think it was a fluke and that he stumbled on to KC.


A Less sarcastic version of what i said.

Well played sir, well played. :suds:
 

Breed

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OK. I got it.

Belichick = lucky as shit drafting Brady in the 5th rd. The main move some would say that has led to 7 Super Bowl appearances and 5 Super Bowl titles for the Pats.

M Shanny = insightful as shit for drafting KC in the 4th rd. Unfortunately that insight wasn't shit when it came to winning games or coaching.
 

Sharkinva

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OK. I got it.

Belichick = lucky as shit drafting Brady in the 5th rd. The main move some would say that has led to 7 Super Bowl appearances and 5 Super Bowl titles for the Pats.

M Shanny = insightful as shit for drafting KC in the 4th rd. Unfortunately that insight wasn't shit when it came to winning games or coaching.


Really dude, did Mike and Kirk pull a train on your sister and post it on the web or something?? Because any little praise given to either of them and you seem to go a bit nuclear.

Kirk was drafted as insurance, in case Mikes suspicions about RG3 turned out to be correct. So yes it was rather forward thinking and insightful to draft Kirk in the same draft, and basically try to cover his own ass should Bob in fact turn into the injury prone failure that he is.


Brady was drafted in the 6th round as a developmental project while they had what was considered a franchise QB starting at the time.
 

gkekoa

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There is a huge difference between 4th round picks and 6th.

If KC had been a 6th, the same year RG3 was drafted, maybe it was luck. KC was drafted in the 4th, even though we didn't have a 2nd...there is a method to the madness there. 2 of our top three picks were QBs...come on man.
 

Breed

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Really dude, did Mike and Kirk pull a train on your sister and post it on the web or something?? Because any little praise given to either of them and you seem to go a bit nuclear.

I dunno. I'll ask my sister. If so, that would be something you and her have in common.

Kirk was drafted as insurance, in case Mikes suspicions about RG3 turned out to be correct. So yes it was rather forward thinking and insightful to draft Kirk in the same draft, and basically try to cover his own ass should Bob in fact turn into the injury prone failure that he is.

Mike should've been as suspicious of his shitty coaching as he was Griffin. Maybe he'd still be in the NFL right now.

Brady was drafted in the 6th round as a developmental project while they had what was considered a franchise QB starting at the time.

Word.
 

Sportster 72

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Some folks just can't see truth when it doesn't fit their version of the truth. :trash:
 

skinsdad62

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yeah what does a 2x superbowl winning coach know anyways ? elway lost 3 x superbowls before shanny's arrival so i dont want to hear about elway

i think both moves were astute . BB took a flier on a pro style pocket passer while he had bledsoe and shanny wasnt sold on bob so he grabbed KC
 

ehb5

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Both moves were probably more luck than anything but they were backed by solid thinking.

On a somewhat related note - I saw somebody arguing on twitter that more teams should look into using multiple first round picks on a QB (say you're the Browns and take Trubisky and Watson) instead of trying to trade up for one specific guy. I guess it's pretty rare to have several picks where you have a shot at a 1st round caliber QB but it was actually kind of interesting. You'd get hell for doing it but it would kinda make sense.
 

gkekoa

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KC was a second rounder according to many outlets. I wouldn't really say he was a lucky pick, except to say he lasted that long. Brady wasn't that highly regarded out of college.
 

Sharkinva

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Things that make you go HMMMM

Darnold, Rosen, Allen: No sure-fire franchise QBs in next wave


During the run up to the 2017 NFL Draft, I heard several of my colleagues suggest that teams in need of a franchise quarterback should consider bypassing the top prospects in a "weak" quarterback class this year and focus on landing one of the crown jewels from a so-called "loaded" 2018 quarterback class.






While I thought such conversation dismissed the talent and potential of the likes of Mitchell Trubisky, Deshaun Watson, Patrick Mahomes and others at the position, I had heard so much about the next wave at the position that I couldn't wait to take a peek at the group when the draft concluded.

In fact, I was so excited about evaluating the next generation of field generals that I popped in some tape over the weekend to get a feel for this collection of quarterbacks that I had heard so much about throughout the offseason. After spending the weekend looking at the top prospects at the position, I would tell anyone within earshot to pump the brakes on the hype train that's making this collection of quarterbacks out to be game-changers at the position.

Now, that's not a complete dismissal of the long-term potential of the quarterback prospects in the upcoming class, but I believe the same questions and concerns that plagued the 2017 group can be applied to those who could be in the 2018 class. Whether it's concerns about their transition from a spread offense to a pro-style scheme or their overall experience and game-management abilities, the top prospects at the position have just as many warts on their respective games as their predecessors. There isn't a sure-fire franchise quarterback in the group and any suggestion otherwise is based on hype, not evaluation.

For instance, USC's Sam Darnold has been touted as the consensus choice as the top quarterback prospect heading into the fall. Observers have suggested that he has the best combination of size, arm talent, athleticism and intangibles that we've seen at the position in years. While the 6-foot-4, 225-pound playmaker certainly posted impressive production and flashed outstanding potential during his 10-game run last season as the team's starting quarterback, he isn't quite a polished passer who's ready to take the NFL by storm.

Sure, he compiled a strong completion rate (67.2 percent) and touchdown-to-interception ratio (31:9) last season, but he played in a catch-and-fire system similar to the schemes that were run by Trubisky and Davis Webb. The Trojans' offense features a number of quicks, screens, RPOs (run-pass options) and mesh concepts (layered crossing routes) that are staples in most spread or Air Raid systems. Thus, Darnold will need time to transition to the pro game, just like his predecessors.






He will also need to refine his footwork and fundamentals to become a more efficient passer from the pocket and show better deep-ball accuracy when he pushes the ball down the field. With Darnold showing a little recklessness with the ball, it's quite possible that his interception totals will swell during his second season as a starter (see the reports of his interceptions during spring ball).

I see why scouts are excited about Darnold's potential. He's a gritty competitor with big-game moxie and he's capable of shredding opponents as an anticipatory thrower. However, he isn't the finished product that some would have you believe. Thus, we should hold off on crowning him the NFL's next great quarterback.

The same could be said for UCLA's Josh Rosen. The 6-4, 218-pound junior is everything that coaches and scouts covet in a traditional pocket passer. Rosen can make every throw in the book with pinpoint placement and accuracy while also showing a feathery touch.

As a freshman in 2015, he wowed evaluators with his ability move defenders with his eyes before throwing receivers open between the numbers. Rosen played like a savvy veteran at the position and exhibited the qualities (arm talent, accuracy, poise and sound judgement) that most desire at the position. Yet, he enters the 2017 season with concerns about his arm strength/talent following a shoulder injury that prematurely ended his sophomore season (missed the Bruins' final six games, underwent shoulder surgery in November). In addition, scouts have concerns about his prickly personality and leadership skills based on interactions with teammates and coaches during his tenure.

Considering how medical issues and character concerns can affect final draft grades, Rosen also has a lot to prove before earning a franchise quarterback label.

Wyoming's Josh Allen has been touted as the biggest wild card of the group based on his A-plus arm talent, gunslinger mentality and experience directing a pro-style offense that produced a quality QB prospect a few years ago (see Carson Wentz).






Measuring 6-5, 222 pounds, Allen is the big, athletic quarterback that coaches and scouts salivate over during the pre-draft process. As a fastball pitcher with unlimited range and outstanding velocity, he can make tight-window throws without flinching. While some of those throws skew toward the "high-risk, high-reward" nature, the Cowboys' QB1 possesses the arm talent to pull it off in most instances. While that is certainly a positive aspect of his game, particularly in dire situations, Allen's tendency to "throw it up" without regard is also a huge concern. He tallied 15 interceptions during his first season as a starter, including seven picks during the team's final five games (1-4 record), which contributed to their late-season slide. Remember how much we discussed Watson's interception totals and Mahomes' gunslinging ways leading up to the draft this spring?

Allen also struggles with his accuracy and ball placement at times, as evidenced by his 56-percent completion rate, so the Wyoming gunslinger isn't the connect-the-dots passer that some teams prefer at the position. Although he still has time to refine his passing skills and master the management part of the game, Allen is more potential than production at this point.

With the other top prospects in college football (Washington State's Luke Falk, Oklahoma State's Mason Rudolph, Louisville's Lamar Jackson, Idaho's Matt Linehan, Pittsburgh's Max Browne and Auburn's Jarrett Stidham) also having a number of warts on their games, I think the next wave of QBs might not be the collection of crown jewels that I expected based on the hype. Let's see if that opinion changes after they take the field this fall.
 

ehb5

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Things that make you go HMMMM

Darnold, Rosen, Allen: No sure-fire franchise QBs in next wave


During the run up to the 2017 NFL Draft, I heard several of my colleagues suggest that teams in need of a franchise quarterback should consider bypassing the top prospects in a "weak" quarterback class this year and focus on landing one of the crown jewels from a so-called "loaded" 2018 quarterback class.






While I thought such conversation dismissed the talent and potential of the likes of Mitchell Trubisky, Deshaun Watson, Patrick Mahomes and others at the position, I had heard so much about the next wave at the position that I couldn't wait to take a peek at the group when the draft concluded.

In fact, I was so excited about evaluating the next generation of field generals that I popped in some tape over the weekend to get a feel for this collection of quarterbacks that I had heard so much about throughout the offseason. After spending the weekend looking at the top prospects at the position, I would tell anyone within earshot to pump the brakes on the hype train that's making this collection of quarterbacks out to be game-changers at the position.

Now, that's not a complete dismissal of the long-term potential of the quarterback prospects in the upcoming class, but I believe the same questions and concerns that plagued the 2017 group can be applied to those who could be in the 2018 class. Whether it's concerns about their transition from a spread offense to a pro-style scheme or their overall experience and game-management abilities, the top prospects at the position have just as many warts on their respective games as their predecessors. There isn't a sure-fire franchise quarterback in the group and any suggestion otherwise is based on hype, not evaluation.

For instance, USC's Sam Darnold has been touted as the consensus choice as the top quarterback prospect heading into the fall. Observers have suggested that he has the best combination of size, arm talent, athleticism and intangibles that we've seen at the position in years. While the 6-foot-4, 225-pound playmaker certainly posted impressive production and flashed outstanding potential during his 10-game run last season as the team's starting quarterback, he isn't quite a polished passer who's ready to take the NFL by storm.

Sure, he compiled a strong completion rate (67.2 percent) and touchdown-to-interception ratio (31:9) last season, but he played in a catch-and-fire system similar to the schemes that were run by Trubisky and Davis Webb. The Trojans' offense features a number of quicks, screens, RPOs (run-pass options) and mesh concepts (layered crossing routes) that are staples in most spread or Air Raid systems. Thus, Darnold will need time to transition to the pro game, just like his predecessors.






He will also need to refine his footwork and fundamentals to become a more efficient passer from the pocket and show better deep-ball accuracy when he pushes the ball down the field. With Darnold showing a little recklessness with the ball, it's quite possible that his interception totals will swell during his second season as a starter (see the reports of his interceptions during spring ball).

I see why scouts are excited about Darnold's potential. He's a gritty competitor with big-game moxie and he's capable of shredding opponents as an anticipatory thrower. However, he isn't the finished product that some would have you believe. Thus, we should hold off on crowning him the NFL's next great quarterback.

The same could be said for UCLA's Josh Rosen. The 6-4, 218-pound junior is everything that coaches and scouts covet in a traditional pocket passer. Rosen can make every throw in the book with pinpoint placement and accuracy while also showing a feathery touch.

As a freshman in 2015, he wowed evaluators with his ability move defenders with his eyes before throwing receivers open between the numbers. Rosen played like a savvy veteran at the position and exhibited the qualities (arm talent, accuracy, poise and sound judgement) that most desire at the position. Yet, he enters the 2017 season with concerns about his arm strength/talent following a shoulder injury that prematurely ended his sophomore season (missed the Bruins' final six games, underwent shoulder surgery in November). In addition, scouts have concerns about his prickly personality and leadership skills based on interactions with teammates and coaches during his tenure.

Considering how medical issues and character concerns can affect final draft grades, Rosen also has a lot to prove before earning a franchise quarterback label.

Wyoming's Josh Allen has been touted as the biggest wild card of the group based on his A-plus arm talent, gunslinger mentality and experience directing a pro-style offense that produced a quality QB prospect a few years ago (see Carson Wentz).






Measuring 6-5, 222 pounds, Allen is the big, athletic quarterback that coaches and scouts salivate over during the pre-draft process. As a fastball pitcher with unlimited range and outstanding velocity, he can make tight-window throws without flinching. While some of those throws skew toward the "high-risk, high-reward" nature, the Cowboys' QB1 possesses the arm talent to pull it off in most instances. While that is certainly a positive aspect of his game, particularly in dire situations, Allen's tendency to "throw it up" without regard is also a huge concern. He tallied 15 interceptions during his first season as a starter, including seven picks during the team's final five games (1-4 record), which contributed to their late-season slide. Remember how much we discussed Watson's interception totals and Mahomes' gunslinging ways leading up to the draft this spring?

Allen also struggles with his accuracy and ball placement at times, as evidenced by his 56-percent completion rate, so the Wyoming gunslinger isn't the connect-the-dots passer that some teams prefer at the position. Although he still has time to refine his passing skills and master the management part of the game, Allen is more potential than production at this point.

With the other top prospects in college football (Washington State's Luke Falk, Oklahoma State's Mason Rudolph, Louisville's Lamar Jackson, Idaho's Matt Linehan, Pittsburgh's Max Browne and Auburn's Jarrett Stidham) also having a number of warts on their games, I think the next wave of QBs might not be the collection of crown jewels that I expected based on the hype. Let's see if that opinion changes after they take the field this fall.

Yup. Long way to go before we know how the class will end up looking. I think the best thing it has going for it is that between Allen, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, and Rudolph there are 5 guys already being talked about as 1st rounders. So just the number of promising guys is interesting. Of course I think only Rudolph is a senior from that group so maybe only 1 or 2 of them come out. On the other hand the last couple years have seen some good prospects come out of nowhere to land in the first round so maybe the class ends up even better than it looks now.

So what's the takeaway? That anything can happen and there's no point worrying ourselves with this class yet.
 

Sharkinva

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Yup. Long way to go before we know how the class will end up looking. I think the best thing it has going for it is that between Allen, Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, and Rudolph there are 5 guys already being talked about as 1st rounders. So just the number of promising guys is interesting. Of course I think only Rudolph is a senior from that group so maybe only 1 or 2 of them come out. On the other hand the last couple years have seen some good prospects come out of nowhere to land in the first round so maybe the class ends up even better than it looks now.

So what's the takeaway? That anything can happen and there's no point worrying ourselves with this class yet.


I kinda think that if one is basing the idea of not resigning Kirk off of the concept that next years QB class is ten strong with franchise guys, its some what of a misguided concept. Because lets say for a moment, five of these guy are actually day one franchise QBs. It also would mean that you are 100% assured that you will be in a position to draft one of these guys.

As I have pointed out, it would royally suck sweaty fat ass for us to,

1. Not resign Kirk
2. Finish 8-8
3. Be in a position where we had to trade up to get one of the magical five
4. trade a kings ransom again for a QB

only to find out in three years we once again managed to grab one of the three in the magical five that turned out to be not so magical.
 

ehb5

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I kinda think that if one is basing the idea of not resigning Kirk off of the concept that next years QB class is ten strong with franchise guys, its some what of a misguided concept. Because lets say for a moment, five of these guy are actually day one franchise QBs. It also would mean that you are 100% assured that you will be in a position to draft one of these guys.

As I have pointed out, it would royally suck sweaty fat ass for us to,

1. Not resign Kirk
2. Finish 8-8
3. Be in a position where we had to trade up to get one of the magical five
4. trade a kings ransom again for a QB

only to find out in three years we once again managed to grab one of the three in the magical five that turned out to be not so magical.

Right. Im certainly not arguing we should make any decisions based on this class. As far as Im concerned we should treat it as an average QB class until we know more - and that wont be for a while.
 

Sharkinva

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Right. Im certainly not arguing we should make any decisions based on this class. As far as Im concerned we should treat it as an average QB class until we know more - and that wont be for a while.


OK thats three times now.

But I will point out, the original concept of this thread was some what that we should handle resigning Kirk based on the idea that next years QB class is ten deep.
 
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