2018 HOF ballot

[StanMarsh51]

its not stupid when it shows that a player was never elite... OK you win he was a top 5 American league pitcher from the window of 1991-2008... but you know what that also means?? there were Better pitchers solely in the AL than him in that same window... are we really giving HOF to the 3rd or 4th Best AL pitcher of his time??

If you look at most (if not all) eras in baseball history, pitchers who were 3rd or 4th in their league are in the HOF, especially in the modern era where there were more teams.

Think of guys like Marichal, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Jim Bunning, Goose Gossage, Fergie Jenkins, Catfish Hunter....these guys were probably 3rd-5th best in their league for their careers, but are in the HOF.

 

[soxfan1468927]

its not stupid when it shows that a player was never elite... OK you win he was a top 5 American league pitcher from the window of 1991-2008... but you know what that also means?? there were Better pitchers solely in the AL than him in that same window... are we really giving HOF to the 3rd or 4th Best AL pitcher of his time??

When the two ahead of him are in the top 10 all time? Yes.

Sure, he wasn't as good as Clemens/Pedro.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I am not saying sosa is better than Thome... Never said that... my point is simple, if you have Bonds on your list then you cant discriminate Steroid players, if you have Thome in, then you have him in for his 600+ HRs... Yes, he did more with that than sosa, but lets not pretend Thome was more than a great power hitter... Sure he walked a lot... But its the HRs that is getting him...

All you did was reiterate the straw man. I have him in for his total body of work, like I do every player.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He was probably better than top 5, and 2 of those pitchers (Clemens and Pedro) are arguably top 10-12 pitchers of all time. That's not really a knock against Mussina.

no it is not a knock on him to be worse than those 2... but my point is that if others flourished during the same time and same circumstances, why are we lowering our standards to allow Mussina in??

 

[navamind]

I am not saying sosa is better than Thome... Never said that... my point is simple, if you have Bonds on your list then you cant discriminate Steroid players, if you have Thome in, then you have him in for his 600+ HRs... Yes, he did more with that than sosa, but lets not pretend Thome was more than a great power hitter... Sure he walked a lot... But its the HRs that is getting him...

no, but you're equating them because they all hit 600+ home runs. They're not similar hitters at all. And stop acting like writers don't look at OBP, this isn't the 1990s.

 

[soxfan1468927]

no it is not a knock on him to be worse than those 2... but my point is that if others flourished during the same time and same circumstances, why are we lowering our standards to allow Mussina in??

I don't know about you, but my standards haven't changed by letting Mussina in.

 

[navamind]

I don't know about you, but my standards haven't changed by letting Mussina in.

Starting Pitcher JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

his 83.0 WAR ranks 23rd all-time among SP and his 63.8 JAWS ranks 28th. Both are above the average HOFer. His 123 ERA+ is tied for 87th all-time, but a lot of the guys ahead are relief pitchers or threw far fewer innings than Moose.

 

[navamind]

If you look at most (if not all) eras in baseball history, pitchers who were 3rd or 4th in their league are in the HOF, especially in the modern era where there were more teams.

Think of guys like Marichal, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Jim Bunning, Goose Gossage, Fergie Jenkins, Catfish Hunter....these guys were probably 3rd-5th best in their league for their careers, but are in the HOF.

Glavine had only two seasons where he was in the top 3 in WAR (in the NL). He had even fewer top 10 ERA appearances than Mussina.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Starting Pitcher JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

his 83.0 WAR ranks 23rd all-time among SP and his 63.8 JAWS ranks 28th. Both are above the average HOFer. His 123 ERA+ is tied for 87th all-time, but a lot of the guys ahead are relief pitchers or threw far fewer innings than Moose.

It's crazy to me that there are twice as many hitters as there are pitchers in the HOF. And if a pitcher retired in the last 30 years, you are either first ballot, or you're not in.

 

[navamind]

It's crazy to me that there are twice as many hitters as there are pitchers in the HOF. And if a pitcher retired in the last 30 years, you are either first ballot, or you're not in.

modern day pitchers are generally underrated IMO.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If you look at most (if not all) eras in baseball history, pitchers who were 3rd or 4th in their league are in the HOF, especially in the modern era where there were more teams.

Think of guys like Marichal, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Jim Bunning, Goose Gossage, Fergie Jenkins, Catfish Hunter....these guys were probably 3rd-5th best in their league for their careers, but are in the HOF.

Except, they were not just 3rd or 4th best in their league, they were that for all baseball...

 

[navamind]

it'll be interesting to see how Roy Halladay does on the ballot in a few years.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Starting Pitcher JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

his 83.0 WAR ranks 23rd all-time among SP and his 63.8 JAWS ranks 28th. Both are above the average HOFer. His 123 ERA+ is tied for 87th all-time, but a lot of the guys ahead are relief pitchers or threw far fewer innings than Moose.

Doing a quick rundown of the list, it looks like 42 of the 86 ahead of Mussina in ERA have thrown less than 2,000 innings. Obviously many were relievers like you mentioned...

 

[StanMarsh51]

Except, they were not just 3rd or 4th best in their league, they were that for all baseball...

Disagree...


Look at Fergie Jenkins or Catfish Hunter or Don Sutton for starters:

Guys like Seaver, Palmer, Carlton, Niekro, Perry were better, so Jenkins, Sutton and Hunter at best were 6th-7th-8th in the majors in some order, and that was with a smaller league (something like 24-26 teams for much of their careers).

So we have the 6th-8th (at best) pitchers in a 24-26 team league getting in the HOF, but Mussina (who's a top 6-8 pitcher in his era) isn't worthy in a league with 30 teams?

 

[navamind]

If you look at most (if not all) eras in baseball history, pitchers who were 3rd or 4th in their league are in the HOF, especially in the modern era where there were more teams.

Think of guys like Marichal, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Jim Bunning, Goose Gossage, Fergie Jenkins, Catfish Hunter....these guys were probably 3rd-5th best in their league for their careers, but are in the HOF.

Catfish was probably top 3-5 for three years. Outside of that, he was very meh. it's such a joke he's in the HOF.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Catfish was probably top 3-5 for three years. Outside of that, he was very meh. it's such a joke he's in the HOF.

I always find it funny to see guys like Gossage, Hunter, and Sutter in the HOF; and guys like David Cone and Kevin Brown are one-and-done on the ballot.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

it'll be interesting to see how Roy Halladay does on the ballot in a few years.

IMO he is a first balloter...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I always find it funny to see guys like Gossage, Hunter, and Sutter in the HOF; and guys like David Cone and Kevin Brown are one-and-done on the ballot.

Kevin Brown, I would rather see him in than mussina...

thought he was a borderline, not upset he is out, but wouldn't have minded him in either...

 

[soxfan1468927]

IMO he is a first balloter...

Here's my prediction for the next few years:

2018:
Hoffman
Guerrero
Chipper
Thome

2019:
Halladay
Rivera
Edgar

2020:
Jeter
Clemens
Bonds

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I always find it funny to see guys like Gossage, Hunter, and Sutter in the HOF; and guys like David Cone and Kevin Brown are one-and-done on the ballot.

I see your point about Hunter... he is a pretty weak HOFer... But Gossage and Sutter were elite at their jobs...

I find it interesting that people are so happy to accept the differences between defensive position, but wont see a difference between SP and RP...