2018 HOF ballot

[soxfan1468927]

Well, I didn't know I had to have the same list as you did and for your reasons...

Oh don't be such a little snowflake. I never said you had to have the same list. I argued against your justification.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Schilling - if Morris isn’t in, why Schilling? If Bum doesn’t get in, why should Schilling? These two have very similar stories to Schilling. He may be an asshat, but he seemed to be liked by his teammates...

Because Schilling was significantly better than Morris. Both in the postseason and regular season. Who says Bum won't get in? He has 6 full seasons. If he retired today he wouldn't even be eligible.

Hoffman - The argument against him is that Rivera should get in first. Why? Eck is in, so the cherry no longer exists. He will probably get my vote.

Seems to be quite a straw man argument there. There is more than one argument against Hoffman, most notably that he wasn't dominant enough as a reliever to justify voting for him as relievers are inherently less valuable.

Mussina - never won a CY. Only finished 2nd once. He was an AL guy, so that may explain why he never really made an impression on me, but he was just a guy who was solid. For a long time, never “the guy”. I doubt he gets my vote.

He didn't win one, but you could certainly argue he deserved it in 2001. I think Mussina was consistently solid, and to me that merits a HOF vote. In an era with flash in the pan performances, Mussina averaged 204 and 122 ERA+. And that ERA+ is a bit warped because of some really bad years. In 11 out of those 17 seasons he was above 125 and 7 of those seasons he was top 5. He is in that 2nd tier of Glavine, Smoltz, and Schilling to me. Which gets my vote.

Omar - Probably deserves it more than Ozzie, but I he wasn’t flashy, so he probably falls short. I doubt I give him my vote.

Completely disagree that he deserves it over Ozzie. Not as good of a hitter, fielder, or baserunner.

I seriously doubt I will put 10 names on my list. I think the Hall needs to be exclusive, and that means leaving good players out. The Hall should be for the ELITE.

I think the Hall needs to be exclusive as well. I'd probably have around 150 in there as of now. And that includes 19th Century guys.

 

[Yo Tee]

Bonds
Clemens
Chipper
Mussina
Hoffman
Thome
Manny
Edgar
Vlad
Walker

 

[navamind]

Moose had a career 3.68 ERA in a hitter-friendly era and he threw over 3500 innings. He had a lifetime ERA+ of 123 and eleven seasons with an ERA+ of 125 or higher. Easy HOFer in my book. His postseason stats are also very good (3.42 ERA, 145/33 K/BB, 1.10 WHIP in 139.2 innings).

as for Bum, he's had a very nice career thus far and he could be a HOFer down the road, but I don't think he's remotely close right now. He's been very good, but he hasn't really had any dominant seasons. His 3.01 ERA looks great, but it comes in an extreme pitchers park.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Schilling - if Morris isn’t in, why Schilling? If Bum doesn’t get in, why should Schilling? These two have very similar stories to Schilling. He may be an asshat, but he seemed to be liked by his teammates...


Mussina - never won a CY. Only finished 2nd once. He was an AL guy, so that may explain why he never really made an impression on me, but he was just a guy who was solid. For a long time, never “the guy”. I doubt he gets my vote.

Schilling and Mussina were both better than Morris. Bumgarner's getting there (if he can pitch at this level for the next 6-8 years), but it's a long ways to go.

Morris had a 3.90 ERA and 1.30 WHIP despite having pretty much his entire career in a pitcher friendly era. Not sure how that's comparable to Schilling/Mussina, who put up better numbers despite pitching in hitter friendly eras.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Logically speaking,

is it possible to have Sosa off your list if you have Thome and Bonds?? I don't think it is... not to start anything, but I think everyone who doesn't have Sosa on their list but has Bonds AND Thome are hypocrites...

 

[navamind]

Logically speaking,

is it possible to have Sosa off your list if you have Thome and Bonds?? I don't think it is... not to start anything, but I think everyone who doesn't have Sosa on their list but has Bonds AND Thome are hypocrites...

I think they were far superior hitters than Sosa (especially Bonds). Sosa's an all-time great home run hitter, but his career line was .273/.344/.534 and his 128 OPS+ ranks 197th (tied with Tim Salmon, Ryan Klesko, Bobby Abreu and Moises Alou). Thome had superior power numbers and an OBP about 60 points higher. Bonds is arguably the greatest player of all-time.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Moose had a career 3.68 ERA in a hitter-friendly era and he threw over 3500 innings. He had a lifetime ERA+ of 123 and eleven seasons with an ERA+ of 125 or higher. Easy HOFer in my book. His postseason stats are also very good (3.42 ERA, 145/33 K/BB, 1.10 WHIP in 139.2 innings).

as for Bum, he's had a very nice career thus far and he could be a HOFer down the road, but I don't think he's remotely close right now. He's been very good, but he hasn't really had any dominant seasons. His 3.01 ERA looks great, but it comes in an extreme pitchers park.

I don't really get it for mussina... I mean, he is the poster boy for sabre metrics get me in, but my real life stats are not great... Sure, he played in yankee stadium and Camden Yards his entire career, but lets not pretend his era didn't give elite pitchers who had to pitch in tough places... How about Pedro and Roger Clemens... So does he really deserve the bonus of pitching during the steroid era, and the AL east??

He was very solid, and had longevity, but he only had one season of an ERA of lower than 3... He never had the dominant season...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think they were far superior hitters than Sosa (especially Bonds). Sosa's an all-time great home run hitter, but his career line was .273/.344/.534 and his 128 OPS+ ranks 197th (tied with Tim Salmon, Ryan Klesko, Bobby Abreu and Moises Alou). Thome had superior power numbers and an OBP about 60 points higher. Bonds is arguably the greatest player of all-time.

I don't disagree... but if you have Bonds in the HOF, then you are OK with steroids, if you have Thome in, then you have him in for the 600+ HRs, he wasn't much else...
so with those 2 in then how can sosa NOT be there?? he has the 600 HRs....

 

[navamind]

so? he had 11 seasons where he finished in the top 10 in ERA (seven top 5). He had a 3.79 ERA in 2000, but that was the third best in the AL. His 3.50 ERA in 1999 was also the third best. 3.49 in 1998? 6th. 3.51 in 2006? 4th.

 

[navamind]

I don't disagree... but if you have Bonds in the HOF, then you are OK with steroids, if you have Thome in, then you have him in for the 600+ HRs, he wasn't much else...
so with those 2 in then how can sosa NOT be there?? he has the 600 HRs....

I'm totally cool with steroids and home runs. But guess what? There's more to hitting than home runs, and Sosa's OBP was .344. Above average, but not great especially for a corner OF. He had five great offensive years (one historically good), but outside of that he was just a good hitter who hit home runs. He was a poor base stealer despite the 234 steals (got caught 107 times).

and again, Thome was far superior at getting on base (.402 to .344). Does avoiding outs not matter? Thome's OPS+ is 19 points higher (and with about 500 more PA as well). He was a much better hitter.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

so? he had 11 seasons where he finished in the top 10 in ERA (seven top 5). He had a 3.79 ERA in 2000, but that was the third best in the AL. His 3.50 ERA in 1999 was also the third best. 3.49 in 1998? 6th. 3.51 in 2006? 4th.

and in the MLB, he only had 4 top 10 ERA with 0 top 5... Point is that he wasn't great...

 

[soxfan1468927]

Logically speaking,

is it possible to have Sosa off your list if you have Thome and Bonds?? I don't think it is... not to start anything, but I think everyone who doesn't have Sosa on their list but has Bonds AND Thome are hypocrites...

Why? Thome was a significantly better hitter than Sosa.

 

[navamind]

and in the MLB, he only had 4 top 10 ERA with 0 top 5... Point is that he wasn't great...

it's stupid to use MLB rankings when one league uses a DH and the other doesn't.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I don't disagree... but if you have Bonds in the HOF, then you are OK with steroids, if you have Thome in, then you have him in for the 600+ HRs, he wasn't much else...
so with those 2 in then how can sosa NOT be there?? he has the 600 HRs....

Well there's your straw man. You assume people have Thome in just because of the 600 HRs. He's also 7th all time in walks and was top 5 in OBP 7 times. Sosa was top 5 once.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

it's stupid to use MLB rankings when one league uses a DH and the other doesn't.

its not stupid when it shows that a player was never elite... OK you win he was a top 5 American league pitcher from the window of 1991-2008... but you know what that also means?? there were Better pitchers solely in the AL than him in that same window... are we really giving HOF to the 3rd or 4th Best AL pitcher of his time??

 

[navamind]

how many pitchers have thrown more innings than Mussina over the last 30 years? and it's not like Moose hung on until he couldn't pitch, he retired on the heels of an All-Star caliber season.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I don't really get it for mussina... I mean, he is the poster boy for sabre metrics get me in, but my real life stats are not great... Sure, he played in yankee stadium and Camden Yards his entire career, but lets not pretend his era didn't give elite pitchers who had to pitch in tough places... How about Pedro and Roger Clemens... So does he really deserve the bonus of pitching during the steroid era, and the AL east??

He was very solid, and had longevity, but he only had one season of an ERA of lower than 3... He never had the dominant season...

What sabremetrics are you talking about? 17 years of a 3.70 ERA when the league average was a full run higher than that? That's not sabermetrics, that's merely adjusting for era.

 

[StanMarsh51]

its not stupid when it shows that a player was never elite... OK you win he was a top 5 American league pitcher from the window of 1991-2008... but you know what that also means?? there were Better pitchers solely in the AL than him in that same window... are we really giving HOF to the 3rd or 4th Best AL pitcher of his time??

He was probably better than top 5, and 2 of those pitchers (Clemens and Pedro) are arguably top 10-12 pitchers of all time. That's not really a knock against Mussina.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Well there's your straw man. You assume people have Thome in just because of the 600 HRs. He's also 7th all time in walks and was top 5 in OBP 7 times. Sosa was top 5 once.

I am not saying sosa is better than Thome... Never said that... my point is simple, if you have Bonds on your list then you cant discriminate Steroid players, if you have Thome in, then you have him in for his 600+ HRs... Yes, he did more with that than sosa, but lets not pretend Thome was more than a great power hitter... Sure he walked a lot... But its the HRs that is getting him...