2018 HOF ballot

[soxfan1468927]

Kevin Brown, I would rather see him in than mussina...

thought he was a borderline, not upset he is out, but wouldn't have minded him in either...

The fact that he got only 12 votes is absolutely ridiculous. A few years back I made an All-Time "One and Done" Team, and he was in the rotation easily.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I see your point about Hunter... he is a pretty weak HOFer... But Gossage and Sutter were elite at their jobs...

I find it interesting that people are so happy to accept the differences between defensive position, but wont see a difference between SP and RP...

You don't think I see a difference between a starter and a reliever?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You don't think I see a difference between a starter and a reliever?

I know you do, but with your last post it didn't seem like that... But my point was really more that people are so against RP making the HOF.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I know you do, but with your last post it didn't seem like that... But my point was really more that people are so against RP making the HOF.

Because I believe a single reliever is significantly less valuable than a single starter. I'm not against relievers being in the HOF. I make no blanket statements when it comes to any position. Just like I'm not against a DH making the HOF, but I think it significantly decreases the value of the player. Only throwing 1000 innings (like Sutter) or 1800 (like Gossage) decreases their value. There are 74 pitchers in the HOF, Sutter is 73rd in IP, ahead of only Satchel Paige. He has fewer IP than Babe Ruth. Gossage is 69th.

 

[soxfan1468927]

For any pitcher to make the HOF on that few IP, they have to be dominant in both the regular and postseason. Like Rivera.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Because I believe a single reliever is significantly less valuable than a single starter. I'm not against relievers being in the HOF. I make no blanket statements when it comes to any position. Just like I'm not against a DH making the HOF, but I think it significantly decreases the value of the player. Only throwing 1000 innings (like Sutter) or 1800 (like Gossage) decreases their value. There are 74 pitchers in the HOF, Sutter is 73rd in IP, ahead of only Satchel Paige. He has fewer IP than Babe Ruth. Gossage is 69th.

I agree that it should be harder for RP to make it... I just don't think it is fair to compare them to SP... They come into games in different scenarios, they just have different jobs...

I have no problem with the RP who are in the HOF and who is not...

I will be interested to see if Hoffman gets in before/after/instead of Billy Wagner...

I have Wagner in over Hoffman... but I know most see Hoffman to be in the lead...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I agree that it should be harder for RP to make it... I just don't think it is fair to compare them to SP... They come into games in different scenarios, they just have different jobs...

I have no problem with the RP who are in the HOF and who is not...

I will be interested to see if Hoffman gets in before/after/instead of Billy Wagner...

I have Wagner in over Hoffman... but I know most see Hoffman to be in the lead...

In my mind, pitchers are pitchers. Their job is to get outs.

I think Wagner was better than Hoffman, but I wouldn't have either in the HOF. Wagner was a pretty dominant regular season relief pitcher, but not for long enough and was terrible in his limited postseason body of work. Hoffman did it longer in the regular season, but wasn't dominant enough, and didn't do enough in the postseason.

Do you believe that Wagner contributed more to his team winning than Mussina?

 

[dougplayer]

Jack Morris. Alan trammel.
1984 team forgotten...both GOD

 

[soxfan1468927]

Jack Morris. Alan trammel.
1984 team forgotten...both GOD

Great team. Morris is not a HOFer.

 

[dougplayer]

You are wrong

 

[navamind]

If he's a HOFer, then so are:

Kevin Apple
Dennis Martinez
David Cone
Jimmy Key
Mark Langston
Tim Hudson
Dave Stieb
Jerry Koosman
Mark Buehrle
Billy Pierce
Wilbur Wood

The list goes on...

 

[soxfan1468927]

You are wrong

Nope I'm not. But Jack Morris is an answer to a great trivia question as he is the only pitcher to be the opening day starter for 4 different World Series winning teams. 1984 Tigers, 1991 Twins, 1992 Blue Jays, and 1993 Blue Jays.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I also think that Adrian Beltre hurts Scott Rolen's chances to make the HOF... if rolen makes it, it is because of his defense... defense is not seen to be a big HOF factor, so if your not the best of your time, then you should not be in question...

He is not the best ever, that goes to Brooks Robinson, and Beltre is the best defensive 3B of his time...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I also think that Adrian Beltre hurts Scott Rolen's chances to make the HOF... if rolen makes it, it is because of his defense... defense is not seen to be a big HOF factor, so if your not the best of your time, then you should not be in question...

He is not the best ever, that goes to Brooks Robinson, and Beltre is the best defensive 3B of his time...

Getting on the ballot the same year as Chipper doesn't help either. Seems Rolen is going to suffer from the "not the best offensive or defensive at his position in his time" problem.

 

[navamind]

I also think that Adrian Beltre hurts Scott Rolen's chances to make the HOF... if rolen makes it, it is because of his defense... defense is not seen to be a big HOF factor, so if your not the best of your time, then you should not be in question...

He is not the best ever, that goes to Brooks Robinson, and Beltre is the best defensive 3B of his time...

Rolen's also a much better hitter than Brooks ever was and probably better than Beltre too. Even if he isn't considered to be on the same level as those two, he still has 20.6 dWAR and 8 Gold Gloves to his name. There's still a pretty good consensus he's one of the best defensive 3rd basemen of all-time. I agree that him not being viewed as a top defender/hitter at his position during his era will hurt.

the only issue I have with Rolen's resume is durability. I'd consider him to be the Larry Walker of 3rd basemen.

 

[calsnowskier]

A critical, series defining post-season error could hurt Rolan’s case as well.

 

[navamind]

A critical, series defining post-season error could hurt Rolan’s case as well.

it'll be interesting to see if anyone holds Beltran's strikeout against him even though he's been one of the greatest postseason hitters of all-time (.308/.413/.612, 16 home runs in 64 games).

 

[Myles]

I'm really curious to see how Rolen and Andruw will do. I think Rolen's an easy HOFer and I'd probably but Andruw in as well, but I don't think they're going to get much support. Or at least not their first few years. Rolen had trouble staying healthy, but I think his offense (.281/.364/.490, 122 OPS+) and fantastic defense (8 GGs, 20.6 dWAR) make up for that. As for Andruw, he's probably one of the greatest fielders in baseball history regardless of position and while he wasn't an amazing hitter, his offense was still good for CF.

I think you make great points. Great points for them not being voted in.
I should say that I am for making the HOF more exclusive. Only the best of the best.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Rolen's also a much better hitter than Brooks ever was and probably better than Beltre too. Even if he isn't considered to be on the same level as those two, he still has 20.6 dWAR and 8 Gold Gloves to his name. There's still a pretty good consensus he's one of the best defensive 3rd basemen of all-time. I agree that him not being viewed as a top defender/hitter at his position during his era will hurt.

the only issue I have with Rolen's resume is durability. I'd consider him to be the Larry Walker of 3rd basemen.

I agree... But that is also comparing apples to oranges... Brooks Robinson was the BEST defensive 3b... BEST.... that's why he made it to the HOF... If your not the BEST of something, not even of your era, then you cant make it because of that, especially when it is a weaker seen HOF qualifying stat...

Beltre being considered the best defensive 3B of Scott Rolen's era makes Rolen's defense not the best, how can his defense get him in?? if it cant, then we know his offense wasn't HOF good... even if it was better than Brooks, and his ratios are better than Beltre...

Beltre, will also make the HOF due to longevity... his ratio's are far from HOF good...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I agree... But that is also comparing apples to oranges... Brooks Robinson was the BEST defensive 3b... BEST.... that's why he made it to the HOF... If your not the BEST of something, not even of your era, then you cant make it because of that, especially when it is a weaker seen HOF qualifying stat...

Beltre being considered the best defensive 3B of Scott Rolen's era makes Rolen's defense not the best, how can his defense get him in?? if it cant, then we know his offense wasn't HOF good... even if it was better than Brooks, and his ratios are better than Beltre...

Beltre, will also make the HOF due to longevity... his ratio's are far from HOF good...

1. Disagree
2. Because his whole body of work should be looked at