Why are the Pirates being so quiet?

[magnumo]

Okay, so as it turns out, Jackson signed with the Nationals 4 days ago, as I had previously thought. It's just now coming out today that the Pirates offered him a one year deal worth some unknown amount of money, as well as a three year deal for something in the vicinity of $10 million per year.

At least they made competitive offers. But it's pretty clear (and always has been) that the Pirates have to do better than simply competitive with their offers to free agents in order to land them. I'm not sure Jackson would have signed with us had we offered him 5 years at $10 million per.

I just googled Jackson and found that 3/30 contract offer from the Pirates was reported by Ken Rosenthal on Twitter. With Boras as his agent, I'm not surprised that he would turn down 3/30 from the Bucs in favor of 1/11 from the Nats. Obviously, he's betting on an even bigger payday next year. For Jackson's sake, I hope he stays healthy in 2012.

I seem to be in the minority, but I wouldn't want Jackson for that kind of multi-year deal. I'd expect a performance decline at PNC Park, and I just don't think the risk would be worth it, especially for the Pirates. We shall see.

 

[thedddd]

I just googled Jackson and found that 3/30 contract offer from the Pirates was reported by Ken Rosenthal on Twitter. With Boras as his agent, I'm not surprised that he would turn down 3/30 from the Bucs in favor of 1/11 from the Nats. Obviously, he's betting on an even bigger payday next year. For Jackson's sake, I hope he stays healthy in 2012.

I seem to be in the minority, but I wouldn't want Jackson for that kind of multi-year deal. I'd expect a performance decline at PNC Park, and I just don't think the risk would be worth it, especially for the Pirates. We shall see.

I read that somewhere (I wish I could find the link) thats why he was willing to take the one year deal in the NL with the hopes to put up good numbers to get a better deal next year. Why I don't understand it but I guess the FA market next year is worse for pitching?

 

[thedddd]

I am amazed the O's made that Guthrie deal. Yeah he is in a contract year but Hammel and Lindstrom aren't not very good returns.
In honesty I wouldn't have minded Guthrie for a year over another of Karstens and a throw a RH RP at the wall hoping he sticks, ala Grilli, Resop....

Sorry I have no faith in Jeff Karstens and was really hoping they sell high on him. Not saying one year of Guthrie is the answer but was hoping for a good return before reality sinks in.

 

[Darkstone42]

I read that somewhere (I wish I could find the link) thats why he was willing to take the one year deal in the NL with the hopes to put up good numbers to get a better deal next year. Why I don't understand it but I guess the FA market next year is worse for pitching?

Next year's market is actually much stronger in terms of starting pitching, especially if a few teams struggle to extend their starters. I can't remember the list exactly, but I remember a few names, highlighted by Greinke, being on it.

 

[Etrius24]

Powerchord

I agree... have Mags put me on ignore and we can be done with this crap....

 

[thedddd]

Next year's market is actually much stronger in terms of starting pitching, especially if a few teams struggle to extend their starters. I can't remember the list exactly, but I remember a few names, highlighted by Greinke, being on it.

2013 MLB Free Agents: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

Yeah there are some really good pitchers on this list (granted a lot with options). I am surprised he would then not take the longer deal. He better have real good season to get the better contract.

 

[Darkstone42]

2013 MLB Free Agents: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

Yeah there are some really good pitchers on this list (granted a lot with options). I am surprised he would then not take the longer deal. He better have real good season to get the better contract.

I forgot about Cain being on that list. That's another arm better than Jackson.

Maybe Jackson hasn't been great lately, but he was better relative this this free agent class than he will be compared to next year's even with a good season.

 

[element1286]

Boras usually doesn't miss, but I think he did here. Jackson should have taken the best three year offer. Or best three year offer from the place he wanted to be the most.

 

[element1286]

Okay, so as it turns out, Jackson signed with the Nationals 4 days ago, as I had previously thought. It's just now coming out today that the Pirates offered him a one year deal worth some unknown amount of money, as well as a three year deal for something in the vicinity of $10 million per year.

At least they made competitive offers. But it's pretty clear (and always has been) that the Pirates have to do better than simply competitive with their offers to free agents in order to land them. I'm not sure Jackson would have signed with us had we offered him 5 years at $10 million per.

Just confirmation of what we already knew, they either overpay or don't get the player.

 

[Illinest]

the fa pitching class will dry up as extensions are worked out and options are exercised.

jackson probably made a mistake in not signing with us. on the other hand I'm not necessarily sad about missing out. Just another footnote.

 

[Darkstone42]

the fa pitching class will dry up as extensions are worked out and options are exercised.

jackson probably made a mistake in not signing with us. on the other hand I'm not necessarily sad about missing out. Just another footnote.

True on both counts, but I guess a couple of comment on each.

On the first point, as an agent or as a player, I would look at that list and then at Jackson's recent performance, and then project this season to be a better chance at getting good money on a longer-term deal than next year. Certainly many of those guys will get extensions and what not, but which ones, and who will be left over? It's just too hard to predict that, and sure money is better than no money.

On the second point, I'm not too torn up about him passing on our deal, either, but it's really discouraging to see yet another player take a lesser deal to play elsewhere, and landing him could have at least improved the perception free agents have of the Pirates in the future, especially if he were to help the Pirates to a better record.

Playing off those two points, Neal may not be an elite GM, and his biggest weakness has decidedly been acquiring Major League talent to help the team now, but it's pretty clear that being the GM of the Pirates is about the toughest gig in Major League Baseball, and probably extremely unappealing.

 

[Illinest]

If Neal would've made a bigger splash in his first season then he wouldn't be getting turned down by the likes of Edwin Jackson now.

Look at what the Nationals have done in roughly the same timespan. They went from 30th to 1st in farm system rankings and they've also drastically improved the perception of the franchise. Now I can't deny that the Werth deal was pretty much insane, but the Nats have some momentum while the Pirates are still the black sheep of mlb franchises.

The Tigers paid the price too. You don't shake a reputation for cheapness by continuing to be cheap.

 

[element1286]

the fa pitching class will dry up as extensions are worked out and options are exercised.

jackson probably made a mistake in not signing with us. on the other hand I'm not necessarily sad about missing out. Just another footnote.

I remember reading there were three year offers on the table from multiple teams, he should have taken one of them.

 

[element1286]

If Neal would've made a bigger splash in his first season then he wouldn't be getting turned down by the likes of Edwin Jackson now.

Look at what the Nationals have done in roughly the same timespan. They went from 30th to 1st in farm system rankings and they've also drastically improved the perception of the franchise. Now I can't deny that the Werth deal was pretty much insane, but the Nats have some momentum while the Pirates are still the black sheep of mlb franchises.

The Tigers paid the price too. You don't shake a reputation for cheapness by continuing to be cheap.

True, but the Pirates don't have the market potential that the Nats do. And I don't agree the Nats have the best farm system, they have a flashy farm system, not the best.

Anyway, I'd like to see the Pirates make a signing and shake some perception.
If, for example, Jackson wanted 4/40 or 3/36 and the Pirates were offering 3/30, and decided to take a chance, I think that is acceptable.

 

[thecrow124]

This makes me think back to a discussion on here a month or so ago when I questioned NH's ability to attract good FA's. I just think he has a set value in his head and refuses to go above that point. I firmly believe that his negotiating skill are very poor or by now he would have gotten at least 1 worthwhile free agent to come here. My biggest fear of all is that when all the bonus babies hit the majors, that he STILL won't get the pieces needed to contend.

I am absolutely not saying anything other than he has some work to do. Mainly on himself, if he ever wants to truely compete. I can only think of 1 team that is competitive based solely on its farm system and that is Tampa, even still they pull pieces from free agency on occasion.

Knowing that I think he made a huge mistake this offseason by not even talking to Pujols or Fielder. There are no true power bats hitting the market for the foreseeable future, and we don't have any in our system system, at least none close to the majors. I am not saying either would have signed with us, but by coming out and saying he wouldn't even talk to them is like telling other free agents that he doesn't want to try to win. Heck I am not sure if I would even sign a free agent deal with the Pirates right now.

 

[Darkstone42]

DK has some take on the Pirates' offseason so far.

Kovacevic: Take the Pirates' money ... please - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

I would like to highlight that the Pirates have been trying to contact Roy Oswalt, according to the article, and he won't even answer/return their calls. This has to be frustrating for Huntington, regardless of what we think of his talents or lack thereof as a GM.

 

[Illinest]

Five years ago when I was saying we should sign Adam Dunn it was partly because I knew the Pirates needed to change the attitudes of veteran free agents. If you sign Adam Dunn 5 years ago then you win a few more games and you scrub off some of the stink of cheapness that surrounds the club.

Neil made this bed of shit - now he's got to lay in it. Two reasonably big names last year in Beltre and De La Rosa. This year Jackson and Oswalt.
THIS WAS PREDICTED. No sympathy.

 

[Darkstone42]

Five years ago when I was saying we should sign Adam Dunn it was partly because I knew the Pirates needed to change the attitudes of veteran free agents. If you sign Adam Dunn 5 years ago then you win a few more games and you scrub off some of the stink of cheapness that surrounds the club.

Neil made this bed of shit - now he's got to lay in it. Two reasonably big names last year in Beltre and De La Rosa. This year Jackson and Oswalt.
THIS WAS PREDICTED. No sympathy.

But there's no guarantee Dunn would have signed with us anyway. In fact, it probably would have ended up just like this.

The offers last season to Beltre and De la Rosa didn't convince free agents this year to sign, so why would offering a contract to Dunn five years ago have made anyone else sign?

Until the Pirates sign a big-time free agent, actually succeed in signing him, no big-time free agent will sign here. And that's a catch-22.

The only other option, it seems, is for the team to overachieve enough to make Pittsburgh look like a possible contender next year.

 

[Illinest]

Given that the Pirates will have to overpay anyways then it makes sense to overpay for a guy in Dunn's price range.
I also was big on signing Werth until his price escalated even beyond my wildest dreams for an overpayment.

The point is that you don't offer an overpayment on a guy like Pujols or Fielder. You take a guy whose real value is 8-12 million and you make them an offer that they can't refuse.

You can argue about what Dunn would or wouldn't have done until you're blue in the face. Personally I think De La Rosa, Jackson, and even Beltre would've taken our offer if they got enough money for it. Neil didn't offer an overpayment in any case however. He has been turned down by players after offering market value. Like we couldn't have expected that.

Dunn got 10 million per year in that contract. He gave the Nats 18.9 million worth of production in those two seasons according to the value figure on fangraphs. Pretty nearly performed as he was paid in other words. The Pirates could've taken some of that Overbay money and that Hinske money (among others) which ended up being wasted anyways and they could've trumped the Nats offer by 4-8 million. Overpayment sure - but they'd have gotten some production out of it rather than spending money on nothing at all.

 

[element1286]

Roy Oswalt can go fuck himself in that case; huge difference between only signing with the Pirates for an overpayment, and not even answering calls.