"Wells Report" Released on Incognito/Martin Bullying Case

[NinerSickness]

Why? How is that an acceptable way of thinking? Shouldn't people be allowed to feel comfortable in their work environments? And everywhere else?

Not if they don't say anything about it. If he told the coaching staff he had a problem about this & it still persisted it's on the management. If he doesn't say anything it's on him.

 

[Darkstone42]

Not if they don't say anything about it. If he told the coaching staff he had a problem about this & it still persisted it's on the management. If he doesn't say anything it's on him.

That's such a backwards way of thinking. The onus should never be on the victim.

 

[JDM]

Why? How is that an acceptable way of thinking? Shouldn't people be allowed to feel comfortable in their work environments? And everywhere else?

I mean, why can't the bullies just, I don't know, not bully? Wouldn't that be ultimately more productive?

You have to be a special kind of broken as a grown man to be "bullied". Not every environment is for everybody. If a team becomes comfortable for the mentally weak, it becomes just as unwelcoming to the rest of the team as the current version is to Martin. The difference is they're man enough to handle it, then get the fuck out to a team that isn't a joke.


No, not everyone can feel comfort everywhere. People are different and have different needs to feel comfortable. Many of these are at odds with each other. In this case, men will be men, and Martin had no place.

 

[NinerSickness]

That's such a backwards way of thinking. The onus should never be on the victim.

Here's the problem with that thinking: Johnathan Martin is not a victim. He's a grown man; he knows how to walk into the human resources office and say there's a problem. He can even do so anonymously! If he doesn't do that, Incognito & Pouncey could be oblivious to the issue. They could think everything's fine. They're not mind readers.

The real problem is that Martin has serious personal problems, and he's taking it out on the team by airing its dirty laundry.

 

[Darkstone42]

Here's the problem with that thinking: Johnathan Martin is not a victim. He's a grown man.

There is a lot wrong with thinking that.

So what you're saying to me is that you are not culpable for damages caused by insulting one of your coworkers on a daily basis so long as he is:

1. Over the age of 18 or 21 or whatever age you deem adulthood to start, and
2. male.

Because according to this argument, once that man goes to human resources, you shouldn't be fired, because before the reprimand came down, you "didn't know" insulting this guy was making the work environment hostile for him. The reprimand is when your conduct can be considered your responsibility.

And then, based on this argument, you can insult this coworker in some different way, until he complains about that, then it has to stop.

And let's expand this argument to, say, women. You can grab a woman inappropriately in the work place until she tells you to stop because you "didn't know" that wasn't okay.

Are you seeing how this line of thinking falls apart? You just have to change little details, and it suddenly becomes absurd. The rules of personal conduct should parallel scientific models, wherein the same rules apply all the time, not just when you're told about them.

 

[JDM]

This is not a fucking office environment. This is a locker room. No remotely intelligent person old expect it to be significantly different than other locker rooms at every level. You're not just employees. You're a team. You're open with each other. You say a lot of shit that's not acceptable in an office environment. You're basically brothers. There are no limits, nor should there be.

Martin is not a victim and has no right to act like one.

 

[NinerSickness]

So what you're saying to me is that you are not culpable for damages caused by insulting one of your coworkers on a daily basis so long as he is:

1. Over the age of 18 or 21 or whatever age you deem adulthood to start, and
2. male.

Because according to this argument, once that man goes to human resources, you shouldn't be fired, because before the reprimand came down, you "didn't know" insulting this guy was making the work environment hostile for him. The reprimand is when your conduct can be considered your responsibility.

Not at all. If he went to HR about it, they are free to discipline the employee(s) however they'd like. Suspension or cutting him / then. Could they fire 'em? Sure. But We're not talking about whether Incognito should be cut or not; everyone agrees he should be cut because of the bad blood he's caused in the organization. We're talking about whether Martin was "bullied" or not. And he wasn't. He was a little bitch who threw a fit because of his own personal problems and took it out on the team by LITERALLY crying to mommy. He didn't just walk into HR and say there's a problem; he outed everyone to the public. That's a piss-ant, child-like tantrum of a move.

And I'd welcome Incognito on the 49ers in a second with full knowledge he's an asshole. I wouldn't touch Martin with a 50 foot pole. I'll bet the Dolphins wish they could do the same (cut Martin & keep Incognito), but they won't because they're gutless & bow to media pressure (also they want to minimize problems from a potential lawsuit; and Martin will almost certainly sue the NFL because that's the kind of whiney bitch he is).

 

[Wazmankg]

Why? How is that an acceptable way of thinking? Shouldn't people be allowed to feel comfortable in their work environments? And everywhere else?

I mean, why can't the bullies just, I don't know, not bully? Wouldn't that be ultimately more productive?

For > 99% of situations I agree with you. But in the NFL being the baddest bully is sort of the point. That said, even there, bullying probably shouldn't be encouraged for team cohesion.

 

[NinerSickness]

bullying probably shouldn't be encouraged for team cohesion.

I think any reasonable person would agree with you on that point (not that Martin was bullied).

 

[JDM]

For > 99% of situations I agree with you. But in the NFL being the biggest bully is sort of the point. That said, even there, bullying probably shouldn't be encouraged for team cohesion.

The teammates pretty much all backed incognito though. The guy who hurt team cohesion was the guy who brought private issues in the locker room to the press.

 

[Darkstone42]

Not at all. If he went to HR about it, they are free to discipline the employee(s) however they'd like. Suspension or cutting him / then. Could they fire 'em? Sure. But We're not talking about whether Incognito should be cut or not; everyone agrees he should be cut because of the bad blood he's caused in the organization. We're talking about whether Martin was "bullied" or not. And he wasn't. He was a little bitch who threw a fit because of his own personal problems and took it out on the team by LITERALLY crying to mommy. He didn't just walk into HR and say there's a problem; he outed everyone to the public. That's a piss-ant, child-like tantrum of a move.

And I'd welcome Incognito on the 49ers in a second with full knowledge he's an asshole. I wouldn't touch Martin with a 50 foot pole. I'll bet the Dolphins wish they could do the same (cut Martin & keep Incognito), but they won't because they're gutless & bow to media pressure (also they want to minimize problems from a potential lawsuit; and Martin will almost certainly sue the NFL because that's the kind of whiney bitch he is).

If the coaching staff was in on it (as it appears to be), where in the organization would he go? The story would have gone public regardless, but he ultimately went to everyone's employer, the NFL, and the proper channels were eventually followed.

I just don't really see why, as a former football, baseball, basketball, and hockey player, and as a current rugby player, a professional locker room, full of grown men supposedly responsible for themselves, who earn paychecks and pay bills and have wives and kids, has to be a different work environment than any other professional atmosphere. It's a foreign thought to me. The best teams I played on were made of players who respected each other. The worst teams I've played on, there was little respect to be found in the locker room.

When it comes down to it, these men have a job to do, and they don't need to harass each other to prepare for upcoming games. They need to feel like they can trust each other, and I get the feeling respecting each other in the locker room, avoiding slurs, insults, and bullying as a rule, would make that a lot easier for everyone on the team.

 

[NinerSickness]

If the coaching staff was in on it (as it appears to be), where in the organization would he go?

If the organization was in on it then it's 100% the organization's fault. Not Incognito's. If management knew about this and allowed it to continue then it's on the management. And Martin would actually have a legitimate case.

I haven't seen anything indicating that Martin lodged a complaint to management though. If I see something indicating as much I'll retract my former statement.

 

[Darkstone42]

If the organization was in on it then it's 100% the organization's fault. Not Incognito's. If management knew about this and allowed it to continue then it's on the management. And Martin would actually have a legitimate case.

I haven't seen anything indicating that Martin lodged a complaint to management though. If I see something indicating as much I'll retract my former statement.

The report says the offensive line coach was in on it. That strongly implies Philbin knew about it and ignored it. When your direct higher-ups seem to be against you, going higher appears as less of an option. At the very least, it gets scarier from a professional standpoint.

 

[NinerSickness]

The report says the offensive line coach was in on it. That strongly implies Philbin knew about it and ignored it. When your direct higher-ups seem to be against you, going higher appears as less of an option. At the very least, it gets scarier from a professional standpoint.

I'd have to see something more specific than that to think the organization knew about this stuff. One guy claiming the OL coach was "in on it" is kind of vague.

And another thing: just because he was called a n!##%r doesn't mean he was "bullied." That term is so ubiquitous in sports that if you made a federal case about every time it's used 75% of the NFL would be suspended all the time. It's a bad word. This is playground bull shit not Demi Moore in Disclosure.

 

[Darkstone42]

I'd have to see something more specific than that to think the organization knew about this stuff. One guy claiming the OL coach was "in on it" is kind of vague.

And another thing: just because he was called a n!##%r doesn't mean he was "bullied." That term is so ubiquitous in sports that if you made a federal case about every time it's used 75% of the NFL would be suspended all the time. It's a bad word. This is playground bull shit not Demi Moore in Disclosure.

Did you read the report? There was evidence of the OL coach's involvement.

 

[NinerSickness]

Did you read the report? There was evidence of the OL coach's involvement.

I heard it was 144 pages long.

Involvement in what? As far as I know the only thing that happened out of line was the use of the N word and racist remarks. The team leaving the dining room while Martin eats isn't harassment, but Martin threw a tantrum after they did that. Did the OL coach make racist remarks as well?

 

[sonnyblack65]

The whole team seems fucked up. When the OL coach gives players blowup doll's for xmas, all female except the male one he gave 1 player . Vikings should take them on a party boat and show them how to get along

 

[Darkstone42]

I heard it was 144 pages long.

Involvement in what? As far as I know the only thing that happened out of line was the use of the N word and racist remarks. The team leaving the dining room while Martin eats isn't harassment, but Martin threw a tantrum after they did that. Did the OL coach make racist remarks as well?

There's a summary posted somewhere in this thread. But the big thing which jumped out at me from the OLine coach was listed in the post above mine.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

The whole team seems fucked up. When the OL coach gives players blowup doll's for xmas, all female except the male one he gave 1 player . Vikings should take them on a party boat and show them how to get along

You nailed it right there. I know a lot guys being guys goes on in every locker room, but what was going on in the Dolphins locker room was out of control IMO.

 

[Jakology]

It still shocks me how insensitive people are to Martin's situation and continually criticize him. You have to understand that its a mental illness and there was nothing he could do about it. This isn't about football anymore guys. Take the football aspect out of it. This is workplace harassment. Plain and simple. Its been proven by the investigation now, and you cannot refute it. The only people that can refute it are Incognito, Pouncey, Jerry, and the O line coach.

So I've always maintained my stance through this entire circus. I've always sided with Martin, and now this report confirms my stance. These 4 guys should be ashamed of what they've done. They almost pushed someone literally over the edge into suicide. Don't feed me any of your mentally weak bullshit. It doesn't matter. People react differently. This is workplace harassment that went way too far, and it caused a troubled person to quit his job. That's the simple truth here. Treat it as such.

People really do disgust me sometimes. I remember when the story first broke. People criticized and hated Martin for no reason. There were very few pieces to the story at that time, and yet, everyone reacted to it as if Martin just wanted an excuse to leave the team or something. Put football aside for one second and try to actually understand the story before you jump to conclusions.

/Rant Geez I've had a lot of these lately.