Game Thread: Week 1: Bengals vs. Indy

[CrashDavisSports]

I was upset about the Carlos Dunlap calls. I didn't like the Shawn Williams call, but accident or not, he hit he QB in t he neck head area when he was being taken down. I was able to live with it.

The part I found perplexing, is right after they called Dunlap for his roughing the passer, the Bengals get the ball back, and one of the Colts clothes lined Dalton right across the face as he was throwing and had his face mask smashed into his nose. Dalton turns and looks for refs holding his hands out in protest and the ref just looks at him and shakes his head "no". 4th down now, Bengals have to punt.

WTF? I mean we are a small midwest team, but aren't the Colts also now that Manning is gone? Why would the NFL give two shits about them either? I can see it if we were playing Brady and the Patriots, or Rodgers and the Packers, but Luck and the Colts?

I just expect equal calls. If we are going to get called for it, okay, just make it fair and call the other team as well.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I was upset about the Carlos Dunlap calls. I didn't like the Shawn Williams call, but accident or not, he hit he QB in t he neck head area when he was being taken down. I was able to live with it.

The part I found perplexing, is right after they called Dunlap for his roughing the passer, the Bengals get the ball back, and one of the Colts clothes lined Dalton right across the face as he was throwing and had his face mask smashed into his nose. Dalton turns and looks for refs holding his hands out in protest and the ref just looks at him and shakes his head "no". 4th down now, Bengals have to punt.

WTF? I mean we are a small midwest team, but aren't the Colts also now that Manning is gone? Why would the NFL give two shits about them either? I can see it if we were playing Brady and the Patriots, or Rodgers and the Packers, but Luck and the Colts?

I just expect equal calls. If we are going to get called for it, okay, just make it fair and call the other team as well.

Dunlap call is a major issue. He was already diving for Luck before Luck had thrown the ball. Had he not thrown the ball, it would have been a sack and no penalty. He threw the ball, but Dunlap was already in the air. You simply can't ask a 275# dude, who is running at full speed, leaping through the air, to then defy gravity and the laws of physics to not land on the QB. This is where the rule is just wrong. I get the rule, and it is to protect guys from purposely driving the QB into the ground when they OBVIOUSLY do not have the ball. This was not the case. This is another example of the NFL officials calling penalties in black and white reading of the rules as opposed to the spirit of the rule, which is why it is there in the first place.

As for Williams. I don't believe a word he says about the hit. Sorry. He tucked his shoulder, launched himself in a downward position, and led with his shoulder (which is still an issue) and helmet. There is a VERY EASY way to rectify this. Actually attempt to tackle someone with FORM. You can still wrap up a big dude running in the legs, with your shoulders, while attempting a form-wrap tackle. It can happen. I see it happen (though be it rarely in now days).

This is where the NFL gets all of the helmet rules and stuff wrong. They are treating the symptom instead of the cause. If they would make a rule that states "ANY launching of the body, leading with the head, or shoulder, that does not result in an attempt to WRAP UP the ball carrier, will be a penalty, and subject to ejection."

Conversely, "Any attempt made by the defender to wrap up the ball carrier will not result in a personal foul should the helmets meet, and any such attempt to wrap tackle would consider all other contact to the helmet as incidental and shall not be a personal foul".

Bam. Done. Force the players to learn how to tackle correctly, and you can remove just about all of the gray area of intent, luanching, and other issues. Force them to either wrap tackle, or any attempt to launch (meaning, tucking the shoulder) would lead to an immediate personal foul, and potential ejection.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Dunlap call is a major issue. He was already diving for Luck before Luck had thrown the ball. Had he not thrown the ball, it would have been a sack and no penalty. He threw the ball, but Dunlap was already in the air. You simply can't ask a 275# dude, who is running at full speed, leaping through the air, to then defy gravity and the laws of physics to not land on the QB. This is where the rule is just wrong. I get the rule, and it is to protect guys from purposely driving the QB into the ground when they OBVIOUSLY do not have the ball. This was not the case. This is another example of the NFL officials calling penalties in black and white reading of the rules as opposed to the spirit of the rule, which is why it is there in the first place.

As for Williams. I don't believe a word he says about the hit. Sorry. He tucked his shoulder, launched himself in a downward position, and led with his shoulder (which is still an issue) and helmet. There is a VERY EASY way to rectify this. Actually attempt to tackle someone with FORM. You can still wrap up a big dude running in the legs, with your shoulders, while attempting a form-wrap tackle. It can happen. I see it happen (though be it rarely in now days).

This is where the NFL gets all of the helmet rules and stuff wrong. They are treating the symptom instead of the cause. If they would make a rule that states "ANY launching of the body, leading with the head, or shoulder, that does not result in an attempt to WRAP UP the ball carrier, will be a penalty, and subject to ejection."

Conversely, "Any attempt made by the defender to wrap up the ball carrier will not result in a personal foul should the helmets meet, and any such attempt to wrap tackle would consider all other contact to the helmet as incidental and shall not be a personal foul".

Bam. Done. Force the players to learn how to tackle correctly, and you can remove just about all of the gray area of intent, luanching, and other issues. Force them to either wrap tackle, or any attempt to launch (meaning, tucking the shoulder) would lead to an immediate personal foul, and potential ejection.

I think that is good rule. My only concern would be a player becoming a runner at the point they have the ball, possession and taken their two steps (athletic move), they can TRUCK a defensive player by lowering their shoulder to run the guy over, but the defensive player has to get out of the way, try to grab him by the waste as he is running by and wrap tackle. As fast as these guys are, that is the difference between 4th down and a 1st down.

What about the RB launching himself up over the line to dive in the end zone? Is the defensive player allowed to launch himself also to meet at the point of impact in the air to try and prevent the TD, or do they have to try and wrap tackle a guy flying through the air on his way in to the end zone?

I guess a situation like the ones I explained above is what I think would lead to some gray area. Or does the runner now have to become an easier target to tackle by running upright and never allowing his upper body to lower creating an impact zone higher on the player for the defender?

 

[Cincyfan78]

I think that is good rule. My only concern would be a player becoming a runner at the point they have the ball, possession and taken their two steps (athletic move), they can TRUCK a defensive player by lowering their shoulder to run the guy over, but the defensive player has to get out of the way, try to grab him by the waste as he is running by and wrap tackle. As fast as these guys are, that is the difference between 4th down and a 1st down.

What about the RB launching himself up over the line to dive in the end zone? Is the defensive player allowed to launch himself also to meet at the point of impact in the air to try and prevent the TD, or do they have to try and wrap tackle a guy flying through the air on his way in to the end zone?

I guess a situation like the ones I explained above is what I think would lead to some gray area. Or does the runner now have to become an easier target to tackle by running upright and never allowing his upper body to lower creating an impact zone higher on the player for the defender?

You can, in my rules view, still launch yourself to make a big hit upon the WR trying to catch the ball. You just can't tuck your arms down and turn your body into a missile. You can still make devastating hits while trying to wrap someone up. That's what's great, IMO, about what I am thinking. You can hit the guy with the shoulder, you can leave your feet to make a hit. You just have to angle your body in a manner that allows for you to also wrap the guy up. Which, as a Defensive coordinator you want, anyway, right? How many times do we see a defensive player come flying in, launch themselves into a RB/WR only to bounce off, and because they didn't attempt to wrap him up, the guy gets 5-10-15 more yards.

Again, trying to remove most (maybe not all) of the gray. If you attempt to WRAP up the carrier, or the potential ball carrier in case of a WR in the act of catching a pass, there is NO penalty. Jump, launch, hit however you want....you just also have to get your arms out to attempt to wrap up the carrier.

If you lower the shoulder, helmet, and/or tuck your arms/hands down to deliver a blow, you can't attempt any wrap tackle form, and it should be a penalty no matter where you hit the offensive player. This kind of launch is what the NFL is trying to get rid of, but you still want hard hitting action. I think the way I'm approaching it allows for both. It is clear what is expected of the defender. It is clear that if the attempt is made, that no foul will be called. It is also ensure safety of the defender and the offensive player by detailing ANY launch without a wrap attempt is illegal and will be flagged, or can lead to ejection.

 

[cincygrad]

I don't think anyone has it in for the Bengals.... I think the refs are just incompetent. The NFL refuses to pay them as full-time employees. It's ridiculous. We're essentially asking them to do too much.

As for Williams - That was a monumentally stupid hit and it would have been flagged anytime in the past 15 years. I have no idea what he was thinking.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I don't think anyone has it in for the Bengals.... I think the refs are just incompetent. The NFL refuses to pay them as full-time employees. It's ridiculous. We're essentially asking them to do too much.

As for Williams - That was a monumentally stupid hit and it would have been flagged anytime in the past 15 years. I have no idea what he was thinking.

I don't think it's the refs' fault, however. The rules are set up to fail. So much gray and ambiguity. It's why no one can figure out what a catch is. Because each time the "fix" the rule, that fail to do anything that removes the gray area. I realize that this can't happen for every rule/play, but when the opportunity arises to fix those rules that can be fixed 100% (or as close as possible), they continually fail to do so.

As for Williams...could not agree more.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I don't think anyone has it in for the Bengals.... I think the refs are just incompetent. The NFL refuses to pay them as full-time employees. It's ridiculous. We're essentially asking them to do too much.

As for Williams - That was a monumentally stupid hit and it would have been flagged anytime in the past 15 years. I have no idea what he was thinking.

Yeah. I agree on Williams. I can see how he may see it a different way, but he had to go low to hit Luck, meaning Luck was already in the process of being tackled and going to the ground. So if you have to dive 2 feet off the ground to hit the guy, he is going down. Then of course he led with his shoulder into the head/neck area of Luck. Now granted, I don't think he was aiming for Luck's head, but when you dive at a guy that is that close to turf already, you just decreased the acceptable target area and it becomes impossible not to get flagged. Everything he did there was wrong, even if it was not intentional.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

You can, in my rules view, still launch yourself to make a big hit upon the WR trying to catch the ball. You just can't tuck your arms down and turn your body into a missile. You can still make devastating hits while trying to wrap someone up. That's what's great, IMO, about what I am thinking. You can hit the guy with the shoulder, you can leave your feet to make a hit. You just have to angle your body in a manner that allows for you to also wrap the guy up. Which, as a Defensive coordinator you want, anyway, right? How many times do we see a defensive player come flying in, launch themselves into a RB/WR only to bounce off, and because they didn't attempt to wrap him up, the guy gets 5-10-15 more yards.

Again, trying to remove most (maybe not all) of the gray. If you attempt to WRAP up the carrier, or the potential ball carrier in case of a WR in the act of catching a pass, there is NO penalty. Jump, launch, hit however you want....you just also have to get your arms out to attempt to wrap up the carrier.

If you lower the shoulder, helmet, and/or tuck your arms/hands down to deliver a blow, you can't attempt any wrap tackle form, and it should be a penalty no matter where you hit the offensive player. This kind of launch is what the NFL is trying to get rid of, but you still want hard hitting action. I think the way I'm approaching it allows for both. It is clear what is expected of the defender. It is clear that if the attempt is made, that no foul will be called. It is also ensure safety of the defender and the offensive player by detailing ANY launch without a wrap attempt is illegal and will be flagged, or can lead to ejection.

I agree with you, but they are not going to allow the hard hit even if it is within your rule on a defenseless receiver or player. So they will keep the gray area no matter how your rule is.

They do not want a WR getting pounded coming over the middle when they are attempting to make a catch and has no chance to defend themselves from a wrecking ball of a hit. It just is not going to happen in todays game.

Plus, I have seen many a times that a guy has launched himself and had his arms out capable of making a wrap up tackle if the WR survives the initial hit. I think MOST NFL big hits actually has the defender outstretching his arms while blasting the ball carrier.

You would have to say, you can launch yourself as long as your arms do not go above your shoulders so that they are the first body part to contact the receiver, and your body is not allowed to be horizontal with the ground. Just too many arguments either way.

 

[DanBengalfan]

If it's a Cincinnati Bengal, he will get hit and players on the other team will dance over him and re-enact it during TD celebrations in other cities and not get fined. If one of our players does it, he will get fined, and expelled, and suspended, and possibly serve jail time for something unrelated.

I'm not watching, fuck it.