We need a big bat: discuss

[msgkings322]

So last night I finally had enough, to me this team simply MUST have a guy with a real big stick in left field (I'm assuming we keep Pence in right).

We can't just roll the same team out there we did the second half of 2012, even though they won the WS. They won a lot of games to get there with a real (enhanced but the numbers were there) bat in left.

And we won't have the pitching dominance in 2014 that we did in 2010-2011. Our rotation should be solid, good enough, but not historically great like those years so you can carry an offense that can't hit with RISP, that can't hit for power, etc.

Seriously, I don't think we make the playoffs without a real guy to bat 4th or 5th playing with Pagan and Pence out there.

Would you guys give up Belt (he can be mostly replaced with Pill or someone), Peguero, and say Crick for Stanton? Would you overpay Choo (he wouldn't bat 4th or 5th of course)? What do y'all think?

 

[calsnowskier]

I would make that trade in a second. Prob is, Miami wouldn't. I just don't see us having nearly enough ammo to get Stanton.

While HRs are fun and nice, I don't think it is something we need to sell our should for. If we get someone like Choo, we would be set.

Choo CF
Scutaro 2B
Posey C
Pence RF
Sandoval 3B
Pagan LF
Belt 1B
Crawford SS

That is a solid, pesky lineup, 1-8 with above average D everywhere except 2B. The question is, how much will it take to get Choo? 4/70? 5/80?

 

[msgkings322]

I would make that trade in a second. Prob is, Miami wouldn't. I just don't see us having nearly enough ammo to get Stanton.

While HRs are fun and nice, I don't think it is something we need to sell our should for. If we get someone like Choo, we would be set.

Choo CF
Scutaro 2B
Posey C
Pence RF
Sandoval 3B
Pagan LF
Belt 1B
Crawford SS

That is a solid, pesky lineup, 1-8 with above average D everywhere except 2B. The question is, how much will it take to get Choo? 4/70? 5/80?

I agree it doesn't have to be a HR-centric guy but it has to be a legit really good hitter. Choo would be fine, I like that lineup.

With Zito off the books, and Lincecum back at a lower rate, and with our guys making a reasonable increase in payroll to keep up with the Dogs, I don't see why we can't sign Choo and Pence. I'd like to say Lopez too but he may be the odd man out in this scenario.

 

[Band of Brothers]

The problem is that hitters especially guys with a little pop will not come to SF because it is death valley out in the outfield. The Giants might have to overpay to get a guy. There was talk again last night after the game on the radio about moving home plate up 10 or 15 feet and add more prime seating to increase revenue. I doubt that will happen. Giants have won 2 of last 3 WS and the park will not change.

The Giants have had problems developing power hitting players especially in the outfield and it has to change. The Giants have to go out in the international pool and sign a guy like Cespedes or a Puig. The wallet has to come out especially now that the Dodgers have so much money to spend with their big TV contract kicking in.

Having such a huge yard helps the get pitching but really hurts when trying to sign a big hitter. The Giants farm system just got rated around 28th in the league and that has to change. They have to develop from within or over pay which they don't do. The landscape of the division is changing with the new Death Star boys in blue wiping their ass's with $100 bills and not caring.

The rivalry is back and it's time the Giants go all in or be left behind . The Giants have money but it's all about how much they are willing to spend.

No crying about the loan on the park anymore. They are printing money over there at AT&T Park.

Something has to give and this will be a important off season coming up. We need a guy out there in left field who can rake. No more platooning back up type players. Spend the money and get it done.



Go Giants !!

 

[SF11704]

While I agree with the theory I'm not exactly sure that it addresses what's really happening to us this year. I would love to have Stanton but I'm not sure that is the answer. We are not the same team that played in 2010 or 2012. I agree that our pitching has taken a step backwards but it's still solid. Le Grope has been our Vogs this year. Maybe even the best we are able to put out there at the moment. He has been consistent. I think the difference is clearly where Stokes has his camp. With RISP this year we just suck. We just can't seem to bring anyone home. Last year it just seemed that we always got the hit when we needed it. Now we just fail ... and on a pretty regular basis. We seem to have quite a number of .250 hitters on our team but to me the stats seem hallow. They regularly get their 1-4 but never when we need it. A Stanton would help .... but so would having Pagan back in front of Scoots. Then there is Panda. He's been horrible ever since he came off the DL. Starting this year I expected 25HRs from Posey and Panda. I also expected 20 or so from Pence and Belt. Still thought that getting 90HRs from 4 starters would match well with our pitching. Just didn't workout that way. I can't prove it but I feel that losing Pagan just seemed to jump start this mess we are in ....

 

[calsnowskier]

I am not sure we would have to over-pay for a player like Choo. He is the type of hitter that can thrive at AT&T. Remember, in '12, the Giants had the two best batting averages in the NL. That is a point that needs to be made to players like Choo.

Changing the dimensions of the field is not something that needs to be discussed for at least a few years. We have too much recent success for that argument to hold any water.

 

[msgkings322]

While I agree with the theory I'm not exactly sure that it addresses what's really happening to us this year. I would love to have Stanton but I'm not sure that is the answer. We are not the same team that played in 2010 or 2012. I agree that our pitching has taken a step backwards but it's still solid. Le Grope has been our Vogs this year. Maybe even the best we are able to put out there at the moment. He has been consistent. I think the difference is clearly where Stokes has his camp. With RISP this year we just suck. We just can't seem to bring anyone home. Last year it just seemed that we always got the hit when we needed it. Now we just fail ... and on a pretty regular basis. We seem to have quite a number of .250 hitters on our team but to me the stats seem hallow. They regularly get their 1-4 but never when we need it. A Stanton would help .... but so would having Pagan back in front of Scoots. Then there is Panda. He's been horrible ever since he came off the DL. Starting this year I expected 25HRs from Posey and Panda. I also expected 20 or so from Pence and Belt. Still thought that getting 90HRs from 4 starters would match well with our pitching. Just didn't workout that way. I can't prove it but I feel that losing Pagan just seemed to jump start this mess we are in ....

There's no need to 'prove' it, I think we all agree Pagan was a big big loss, more than we expected. And yes him back and guys like Panda in a contract year hitting like they can would be a big help. But we need a legit MLer in left, we just won't have the pitching dominance to live without one next year.

Actually every one of our starters is hitting well over .250, except Blanco who's at .248
But the OBPs aren't good for some of those guys, and we just don't have a reliable table setter. Plus guys in RBI situations (like Belt batting 6th) strike out WAY too much instead of hitting sac flies at least, etc.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Certainly at a minimum for starters we MUST re-sign Pence. Before we can go forward, we cannot go backwards.

Blanco has been a disappointment. We were all hoping he'd at least turn into a .750 OPS guy who at least wouldn't be the problem. I love his D, but he has exhausted his chances.

I would take either solution, Stanton or Choo. And while I like Belt, we could gamble on Pill to make Belt available. That is the kind of thing we would have to do to contend - take calculated gambles on a prospect or two and hope they produce.

 

[Stokes1931]

The park does not seem to affect opposing hitters. Even the Reds' hitters who hit homers were not the big boppers in the lineup.

We just need to get better at driving in runs when we have the chance.

We also need better development of young hitters. Obviously, we cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and maybe it goes to drafting better hitters. But other orgs (see the Cards) seem to be pretty incredible at developing hitters that are patient, work the count, and hit when it matters. And hit for power.

I do wonder whether there is a "Giant's Way" of hitting through the organization, and whether it needs to be revamped. I am certainly tired of Bam Bam's work at the big club level. While one certainly cannot blame him for all the hitting woes, it is his job to figure things out and help the hitters get better. This teamwide slump and awful BA with RISP has been going on for almost three months. And there seems to be little (to our eyes) adjustments being made. If we are going to play in a big park, we need to teach and develop hitters that will take advantage of it, not whine like the Tiggers did about the dimensions of Comerica.

Choo seems like a nice fit. He hits for power, but does not seem like a guy who believes he is Barry Bonds. Unlike Roro, who had some nice power years in the bandbox in Philly, and then came here thinking he'd put up the same numbers. If he had changed his approach, he could have hit 50 doubles a year, but he kept trying to hit homers, with warning track power.

GStanton is a pipe dream, and would cost way too much.

I am still not sold on Pence. He is high energy, and a good clubhouse guy, hits for average, and has speed, and is average D with a good arm, but his average is pretty weak in terms of driving runs in. He does not seem (maybe this season is the anomaly) to be a run producer. But my eyes (and heart) can be deceived.

 

[Stokes1931]

There's no need to 'prove' it, I think we all agree Pagan was a big big loss, more than we expected. And yes him back and guys like Panda in a contract year hitting like they can would be a big help. But we need a legit MLer in left, we just won't have the pitching dominance to live without one next year.

Actually every one of our starters is hitting well over .250, except Blanco who's at .248
But the OBPs aren't good for some of those guys, and we just don't have a reliable table setter.

We are setting the table, that's not the problem. In fact, before the ASB we were leaving 7.1 men on base per game. Since the ASB we have been averaging 7.7 men LOB per game.

Pagan is certainly missed, but he was not a huge RBI man. No one is stepping up to drive in runs, and that is our offensive issue.

Agreed about a crying need for a LF next season. Blanco needs to sit for a week or so, he is absolutely lost at the plate.

 

[Band of Brothers]

Hey Cal trust me it will cost more to get Choo. You think he wants to hit at AT&T? Not only that but with all the taxes in California players want more to play here. Texas,Florida,and states that don't have state taxes or low rates do have a slight advantage in signing some guys but California takes a big chunk out of guys pay these days and trust me they notice that fact. I like Choo but it will cost them. It's time though to pony up some cash.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Hey Cal trust me it will cost more to get Choo. You think he wants to hit at AT&T? Not only that but with all the taxes in California players want more to play here. Texas,Florida,and states that don't have state taxes or low rates do have a slight advantage in signing some guys but California takes a big chunk out of guys pay these days and trust me they notice that fact. I like Choo but it will cost them. It's time though to pony up some cash.

I'm not saying ANYTHING.

(Although I guess I just did.)

 

[calsnowskier]

Taxes is a good point that doesn't get enough mention. I am not sure how much it plays, though. The Dodgers and Angels have always been able to sign FAs. And the Giants did not have problems pre-AT&T.

 

[Band of Brothers]

Cal taxes in California have gone up big time. Also the Dodgers and Angels are not afraid to pay the bucks. They have been spending big bucks to sign players. California is a great place to play and live but it will cost you.

 

[tzill]

So last night I finally had enough, to me this team simply MUST have a guy with a real big stick in left field (I'm assuming we keep Pence in right).

We can't just roll the same team out there we did the second half of 2012, even though they won the WS. They won a lot of games to get there with a real (enhanced but the numbers were there) bat in left.

And we won't have the pitching dominance in 2014 that we did in 2010-2011. Our rotation should be solid, good enough, but not historically great like those years so you can carry an offense that can't hit with RISP, that can't hit for power, etc.

Seriously, I don't think we make the playoffs without a real guy to bat 4th or 5th playing with Pagan and Pence out there.

Would you guys give up Belt (he can be mostly replaced with Pill or someone), Peguero, and say Crick for Stanton? Would you overpay Choo (he wouldn't bat 4th or 5th of course)? What do y'all think?

Two things here:
1. You don't know what type of dominance we will have, as it's the future. What if we get ERA+ of Bum (125), Cain (120), Gaudin (115), Tim (115), and Tron (105)? None of those numbers are unrealistic, and all could be exceeded. If we had that staff, we'd be pretty dominant. Remember that the average #3 starter has an ERA+ of 100.
2. We may not need to have dominant pitching to win in 2014. What if we got this from our starters, in OPS+: Buster (145), BB9 (125), Scoots (115), Stamos (115), Panda (125), Gangle (125), Oxy (110)? Again, nothing unrealistic there.

I agree that we will need to be much better with RISP, and I'd expect a bit more power from Belt and Panda than we saw this year.

I don't think we need a big 130 OPS+ type bat to be in the playoffs, or even to win the west. The key, as it always is, will be to stay healthy.

 

[tzill]

So last night I finally had enough, to me this team simply MUST have a guy with a real big stick in left field (I'm assuming we keep Pence in right).

We can't just roll the same team out there we did the second half of 2012, even though they won the WS. They won a lot of games to get there with a real (enhanced but the numbers were there) bat in left.

And we won't have the pitching dominance in 2014 that we did in 2010-2011. Our rotation should be solid, good enough, but not historically great like those years so you can carry an offense that can't hit with RISP, that can't hit for power, etc.

Seriously, I don't think we make the playoffs without a real guy to bat 4th or 5th playing with Pagan and Pence out there.

Would you guys give up Belt (he can be mostly replaced with Pill or someone), Peguero, and say Crick for Stanton? Would you overpay Choo (he wouldn't bat 4th or 5th of course)? What do y'all think?

Yes, but there's no way the Fish make that trade. You're looking at Bum or a combo of Crick/Blackburn/Williamson plus either Belt or Stamos.

 

[tzill]

I would make that trade in a second. Prob is, Miami wouldn't. I just don't see us having nearly enough ammo to get Stanton.

While HRs are fun and nice, I don't think it is something we need to sell our should for. If we get someone like Choo, we would be set.

Choo CF
Scutaro 2B
Posey C
Pence RF
Sandoval 3B
Pagan LF
Belt 1B
Crawford SS

That is a solid, pesky lineup, 1-8 with above average D everywhere except 2B. The question is, how much will it take to get Choo? 4/70? 5/80?

The problem with Choo is that he's a 2.5-3.0 WAR player, and not worth more than 13-15 per year. Also, he's 30, so he's got a couple years left in his prime. I wouldn't go more than 4/60. Unfortunately, some other team will.

 

[msgkings322]

Two things here:
1. You don't know what type of dominance we will have, as it's the future. What if we get ERA+ of Bum (125), Cain (120), Gaudin (115), Tim (115), and Tron (105)? None of those numbers are unrealistic, and all could be exceeded. If we had that staff, we'd be pretty dominant. Remember that the average #3 starter has an ERA+ of 100.
2. We may not need to have dominant pitching to win in 2014. What if we got this from our starters, in OPS+: Buster (145), BB9 (125), Scoots (115), Stamos (115), Panda (125), Gangle (125), Oxy (110)? Again, nothing unrealistic there.

I agree that we will need to be much better with RISP, and I'd expect a bit more power from Belt and Panda than we saw this year.

I don't think we need a big 130 OPS+ type bat to be in the playoffs, or even to win the west. The key, as it always is, will be to stay healthy.

Hey none of us know, sure. That's just my feeling. We will get good enough pitching, but need better hitting. And health is much about luck, you can't plan on it, but you can prepare for bad luck with redundancy in players, i.e. more good bats. I'm not saying we need Stanton in left, but we need an upgrade over Blanco and Peggs/Pill/RK ain't gonna be it.

 

[msgkings322]

Yes, but there's no way the Fish make that trade. You're looking at Bum or a combo of Crick/Blackburn/Williamson plus either Belt or Stamos.

If Belt + Crick + Williamson were enough I'd do that yesterday

 

[msgkings322]

The problem with Choo is that he's a 2.5-3.0 WAR player, and not worth more than 13-15 per year. Also, he's 30, so he's got a couple years left in his prime. I wouldn't go more than 4/60. Unfortunately, some other team will.

Actually he's more like a 3-4 WAR player. In Cleveland he was 5-6 WAR

You gotta overpay a guy or two to keep up with the Dogs. It's not our money. I'm not saying turn into the Dodgers but as has been discussed many times including in this thread, if you don't have hitters you develop yourself you are going to have to overpay a couple to play here. It's time to do that, in this window we have.

We overpaid pitchers for years (Zito, Timmy), let's do the hitters now.