Series Thread: Warriors and Memphis

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

Dubs really took it to them tonight. Can't wait for Friday's game 6......Gonna be crazy.

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

Memphis Grizzlies vs Golden State Warriors - Recap

 

[msgkings322]

A stunning collapse. the Grizzlies imposed their will on a weak and inneffectual Warrior team. They were dominated and played scared. they are done. Its a shame to see the season end like this.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

Yes, we don't need for Bogut to score any points, and it's good to allow for the defense to only have to guard 4 of the 5 guys.

Most centers in the NBA can score the ball in addition to defense, rim-protecting and blocks shots. By the way, Bogut did have 6 points on and he didn't pass up any easy points right under the bucket. That was my main issue with him. A 7-footer doesn't throw the ball out to anyone else when he's two feet from the rim.

Also, you're "pitcher" example is just not a good example. It is thoroughly understood that pitchers will hit anywhere from .080 to .150 (some hit higher), but a lot of centers in the league actually have to be guarded because they can score (making it a 5 on 5 game, forcing everyone to have to be guarded). Bogut is the only center in the league (maybe aside from Dwight Howard) who simply does not have a "jump shot". In 90+ games so far this season (I know he missed 15 games or so), I saw him shoot one jump shot. Bogut could certainly stand to learn some offensive moves other than his current "repetoire". Who would purposely want to have a terribly offensively deficient center on their team? Also, what baseball teams depend on their pitchers for offensive punch to win a ball game? Terrible analogy.

Having said that, while D. Green could shoot a lick in last night's game, he played a great game, delivering 9 assists and some solid defense. HB provided some excellent offensive punch, but he still has such problems finishing around the rim. AI9 had another great game. He, along with Thompson (I guess Curry too with his 1st quarter which got them back into the game) were the stars of the game.

Now, can the Dubs finish it off at the Grind "Palace"?? I know it's the Grind something. Tony Allen was out for this game. I know that he's considered a great defensive player, and they could have certainly used that in tonight's game...guarding Thompson. He's out with a hammy, which might mean that he also misses the next game, or if he does play, his effectiveness may be limited.

No one had a good offensive game for the Griz in last night's game. While some had some points, no one shot a good percent from the floor.

We're gonna need at least 20 points from Bogut to win the next game. Kidding. Oh, we had 28 assists to 16 TOs in last night's game (7 of the TOs must have happened in the first quarter) and we ran away from the Griz in fast break points.

Also, Houston beat the Clips the night before, so they're forced to go another game to finish off their series. Granted, the Clips will likely run away with tonight's game and then wait on the winners of the Warriors/Griz series. Assuming that the Dubs win this series, I don't see it making an appreciable difference if the Clips have a few days extra to rest. I also see the series between the Clips and Dubs (assuming they play) being one great series, with a lot of hard fouls, technicals, great play out of Curry, Paul, Thompson and Griffin.

 

[CitySushi]

That's like saying a good baseball team needs it's pitcher to hit .285 & drive in runs to win ball games....when all they have to really do is pitch well.

Bogut is only there to protect the rim (block or alter shots in the paint), rebound, set picks, and for his passing skills. Any points from him is usually just icing on the cake.


C'mon Man!!

Great analogy. I would more equate Bogut to a leadoff hitter than a pitcher. You're not gonna ask your leadoff hitter to try and hit 30+ home runs in a year. He has a job. Take pitches, steal bases, have a high on base percentage, be able to move runners over, etc. He has a specific role within the team dynamic and has to set the tone. That is much like Bogut.

Defensively, he sets the tone. He doesn't need to be the home run hitter, he just needs to make sure he does his job well. His job is to defend the rim, alter shots, rebound and play outstanding defense. He has done that in every game this series.

 

[Montalban]

Great analogy. I would more equate Bogut to a leadoff hitter than a pitcher. You're not gonna ask your leadoff hitter to try and hit 30+ home runs in a year. He has a job. Take pitches, steal bases, have a high on base percentage, be able to move runners over, etc. He has a specific role within the team dynamic and has to set the tone. That is much like Bogut.

Defensively, he sets the tone. He doesn't need to be the home run hitter, he just needs to make sure he does his job well. His job is to defend the rim, alter shots, rebound and play outstanding defense. He has done that in every game this series.

Agreed. He is critical! He's the one constant under the basket. Bogut is the only one strong enough and big enough to successfully battle under the boards. The others are either to small or are unwilling.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

So, you guys are all for Bogut, a 7 foot center with years of experience in the NBA, to be so afraid of putting up a 2-6 foot shot, that he passes the ball out to anyone else rather than shoot? No one but me can see that someone who can't or won't shoot the ball is giving the defense an advantage by not being offensive minded?

That's like saying that Curry, the point guard, doesn't need to score. He just needs to get everyone involved, maybe take 6-8 shots per game, be the floor leader, etc. But, of course, Curry is much more than that. How dare him bother to be both a point guard and a great shooter and scorer. Also, how dare he bother to work on his defense so that he could be more of a contributor on defense. Everyone should just be content as they are and not bother to better themselves so that they can contribute even more to the team.

Bogut's lack of offense HURTS the team on the offensive side of the ball. I hope that his lack of offense doesn't prevent us from winning this series, or the next series or the Championship series. Or, better yet, I hope that he ups his game on the offensive side of the ball and becomes more of a presence on offense so that everyone has to be guarded....no one can be unguarded so that the other team can double team guys like Curry or Thompson.

 

[CitySushi]

So, you guys are all for Bogut, a 7 foot center with years of experience in the NBA, to be so afraid of putting up a 2-6 foot shot, that he passes the ball out to anyone else rather than shoot? No one but me can see that someone who can't or won't shoot the ball is giving the defense an advantage by not being offensive minded?

That's like saying that Curry, the point guard, doesn't need to score. He just needs to get everyone involved, maybe take 6-8 shots per game, be the floor leader, etc. But, of course, Curry is much more than that. How dare him bother to be both a point guard and a great shooter and scorer. Also, how dare he bother to work on his defense so that he could be more of a contributor on defense. Everyone should just be content as they are and not bother to better themselves so that they can contribute even more to the team.

Bogut's lack of offense HURTS the team on the offensive side of the ball. I hope that his lack of offense doesn't prevent us from winning this series, or the next series or the Championship series. Or, better yet, I hope that he ups his game on the offensive side of the ball and becomes more of a presence on offense so that everyone has to be guarded....no one can be unguarded so that the other team can double team guys like Curry or Thompson.

I think you're nitpicking a bit with the Bogut issue. Would it be great if he could be relied upon for 10 points a game? Absolutely. Realistically, the Warriors don't need that from him. If he's able to get a lob or two and a put back or two a game, that's just gravy.

Few things:
"Boguts lack of offense HURTS the team on the offensive side of the ball."
-Strongly disagree. Bogut is a PLUS to the team on the offensive side of the ball because of his passing and his screen setting. It's not his job to score. Would you rather Bogut take a wide open 8 foot shot, or have him set screens to free up Klay and Steph for an open shot? Would you rather Bogut try to score in the paint or have him hit a back door cutter? Bogut is integral to the offense without having to be a scorer.

"no one can be unguarded so that the other team can double team guys like Curry or Thompson."
-Correct...if the unguarded player is a perimeter player(see Tony Allen). Teams have been doubling Curry and Thompson all year. When Bogut lurks around the paint, which guy is going to leave him open to double? They usually double Curry and Thompson off the high pick and rolls. Again, this is where Bogut's passing come into play. In addition the Warriors have been running more pick and rolls with Draymond than Bogut.

"That's like saying that Curry, the point guard, doesn't need to score. He just needs to get everyone involved, maybe take 6-8 shots per game, be the floor leader, etc. But, of course, Curry is much more than that"
-You said it yourself Curry is more than that. Bogut is not. He has limitations. But within those limitations the coaching staff has put in a position to thrive.

"Also, how dare he bother to work on his defense so that he could be more of a contributor on defense. Everyone should just be content as they are and not bother to better themselves so that they can contribute even more to the team."
-LOL. Chill. It's not like Bogut is going to become a prolific shooter and scorer in the three weeks since the end of the regular season. There's always something for guys to work on in the off season. Bogut's was to get healthy, if I recall.


How many championship teams have won with a defensive only center?

-Tyson Chandler
-Ben Wallace
-Tiago Splitter
-Kendrick Perkins
-Udonis Haslem/Joel Anthony.

Those are the recent ones that come to mind.

 

[CitySushi]

Also, if scoring was so important to the Warriors, Kerr would easily start David Lee and play him big minutes. David Lee is 1000x better than Bogut scoring. By your logic, why wouldn't Lee be playing 40 minutes a game right now for us?

Edit: Not a knock on David Lee. He's been great for us the last two games.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

"Also, if scoring was so important to the Warriors, Kerr would easily start David Lee and play him big minutes. David Lee is 1000x better than Bogut scoring. By your logic, why wouldn't Lee be playing 40 minutes a game right now for us?"

You do know that I didn't say that scoring was the only important thing for a player to be able to do, right? I simply said that having one player to totally not be a threat is harmful to a team in this particular aspect. I'm not making an overall judgement of Bogut. I'm not discounting his positives. I'm merely stating that if he was more integral in the offense that the Dubs would be better.

A player who can score is better able to find open men because he's drawing the defense to him. No one EVER double teams Bogut, I'm sure you've noticed. Double teams create openings for others.

When Bogut is working on his game, do you think he works on setting picks and blocking shots? Nope. When one works on their game, it is normally an individual thing. Bogut has a nice soft jump hook with either hand. He's shot .563 from the floor this year, and most of them haven't been ally-oops. Most come on good passes and dunks and on the jump hook.

Also, you're highly over-exaggerating Bogut's passing skills. He's a decent passing big man. I think that people have really overblown his passing skills.

Also, why does Klay Thompson have to work hard to become a good defender? He's already a great scorer, a good guy and he'll be scoring a lot of points for the Warriors for years to come. Why not just be a good scorer and an "okay" defender?

What you're saying is that defense is something that EVERYONE should be good at, but offense is just for some guys. Others don't need to work on their offensive game. Bogut doesn't need to work on improving his FT %. He sets picks, blocks shots, rebounds. Well, if the team comes up short, who are you going to point the finger at? Where can we improve our team? Which individuals can get better so that we can win it all? Bogut didn't make the all-star team, right? He must have some weaknesses. I think he does, and one of them is offense, so why not work on his offense and his FT % so that he can contribute more for the team? Our team is 100% healthy right now. What if someone gets injured? Are Curry and Thompson expected to pick up everyone's slack?

As for your list of teams who've won with so-so centers (or whatever you called them), there is also a list of teams who've won with great scoring centers. Think Wilt Chamberlin, Bill Russell, Patrick Ewing, Akeem Olojuan (sp??), Shaquille O'neal, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Robert Parish, Moses Malone. By the way, these guys also were pretty good defenders, shot blockers, etc. I'm not sure if they're up there with Bogut on his pick-setting skills (LOL), but they were pretty well-rounded players. Do you think these guys' offensive punch had anything to do with their teams winning? Oh, and I'm aware that Tim Duncan is a power forward. But, he plays more like a center, so I included him.

 

[CitySushi]

"Also, if scoring was so important to the Warriors, Kerr would easily start David Lee and play him big minutes. David Lee is 1000x better than Bogut scoring. By your logic, why wouldn't Lee be playing 40 minutes a game right now for us?"

You do know that I didn't say that scoring was the only important thing for a player to be able to do, right? I simply said that having one player to totally not be a threat is harmful to a team in this particular aspect. I'm not making an overall judgement of Bogut. I'm not discounting his positives. I'm merely stating that if he was more integral in the offense that the Dubs would be better.

A player who can score is better able to find open men because he's drawing the defense to him. No one EVER double teams Bogut, I'm sure you've noticed. Double teams create openings for others.

When Bogut is working on his game, do you think he works on setting picks and blocking shots? Nope. When one works on their game, it is normally an individual thing. Bogut has a nice soft jump hook with either hand. He's shot .563 from the floor this year, and most of them haven't been ally-oops. Most come on good passes and dunks and on the jump hook.

Also, you're highly over-exaggerating Bogut's passing skills. He's a decent passing big man. I think that people have really overblown his passing skills.

Also, why does Klay Thompson have to work hard to become a good defender? He's already a great scorer, a good guy and he'll be scoring a lot of points for the Warriors for years to come. Why not just be a good scorer and an "okay" defender?

What you're saying is that defense is something that EVERYONE should be good at, but offense is just for some guys. Others don't need to work on their offensive game. Bogut doesn't need to work on improving his FT %. He sets picks, blocks shots, rebounds. Well, if the team comes up short, who are you going to point the finger at? Where can we improve our team? Which individuals can get better so that we can win it all? Bogut didn't make the all-star team, right? He must have some weaknesses. I think he does, and one of them is offense, so why not work on his offense and his FT % so that he can contribute more for the team? Our team is 100% healthy right now. What if someone gets injured? Are Curry and Thompson expected to pick up everyone's slack?

As for your list of teams who've won with so-so centers (or whatever you called them), there is also a list of teams who've won with great scoring centers. Think Wilt Chamberlin, Bill Russell, Patrick Ewing, Akeem Olojuan (sp??), Shaquille O'neal, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Robert Parish, Moses Malone. By the way, these guys also were pretty good defenders, shot blockers, etc. I'm not sure if they're up there with Bogut on his pick-setting skills (LOL), but they were pretty well-rounded players. Do you think these guys' offensive punch had anything to do with their teams winning? Oh, and I'm aware that Tim Duncan is a power forward. But, he plays more like a center, so I included him.

"A player who can score is better able to find open men because he's drawing the defense to him. No one EVER double teams Bogut, I'm sure you've noticed. Double teams create openings for others."

- The Warriors run a motion based system, not reliant upon a big to draw a double team. That's the beauty of their system. Bogut fits within the offensive scope of what is needed from him.

"When Bogut is working on his game, do you think he works on setting picks and blocking shots? Nope. When one works on their game, it is normally an individual thing. Bogut has a nice soft jump hook with either hand. He's shot .563 from the floor this year, and most of them haven't been ally-oops. Most come on good passes and dunks and on the jump hook."

-I'm sure you've seen his workouts, so I'll just trust you that you know he doesn't work on anything.

Also, why does Klay Thompson have to work hard to become a good defender? He's already a great scorer, a good guy and he'll be scoring a lot of points for the Warriors for years to come. Why not just be a good scorer and an "okay" defender?

- So Klay and Curry can work on improving their defense, but Bogut can't? But isn't working out, doing individual work like practicing shooting? Wait, I'm confused.

"Also, you're highly over-exaggerating Bogut's passing skills. He's a decent passing big man. I think that people have really overblown his passing skills."

- Name 5 better passing centers in the NBA. I'll wait.

"What you're saying is that defense is something that EVERYONE should be good at, but offense is just for some guys."

- Not even close to what I said. I'm saying he doesn't NEED to score. Everyone should always be working to better themselves. He is on the team for his defense. Anything else is a bonus.

Bogut didn't make the all-star team, right? He must have some weaknesses.

-Everyone has weaknesses. Get over it. There are literally only 12 Allstars in each conference. Apparently everyone else in the NBA is garbage as well for not becoming great in all facets of their game.

"As for your list of teams who've won with so-so centers (or whatever you called them), there is also a list of teams who've won with great scoring centers. Think Wilt Chamberlin, Bill Russell, Patrick Ewing, Akeem Olojuan (sp??), Shaquille O'neal, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Robert Parish, Moses Malone. By the way, these guys also were pretty good defenders, shot blockers, etc."

- HOLD UP. WAIT A SECOND.

Did you just try to compare a ROLE PLAYER center and what he should bring to the table to HALL OF FAME CENTERS. Some of the best players of ALL TIME? Wait. WHAT?

LOL.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

If you had done a somewhat decent job at refuting any of my comments, I'd address your post. Instead, I'll rest my case. You seem to think that some people should strive to improve and some should not. You seem to think that allowing 5 guys to cover your 4 is preferable to forcing your opponents to have to cover all 5 guys. You seem to think that just because I've said that it would be better if Bogut was more of a threat on offense that I'm discounting his other skills. You've also stated that since I said Bogut's offense wasn't so great that, therefore, David Lee should play in place of Bogut. You should spend more time next time you attempt to debate me. Just sayin'.

RK PLAYER TEAM GP MPG AST APG TO TOPG AP48M AST/TO
1 Marc Gasol, C MEM 10 37.1 45 4.5 16 1.6 5.8 2.81 4.5
2 Al Horford, C ATL 11 33.3 45 4.1 20 1.8 5.9 2.25 4.1
3 Boris Diaw, C SA 7 28.3 25 3.6 9 1.3 6.1 2.78 3.6
4 Joakim Noah, C CHI 11 32.7 36 3.3 19 1.7 4.8 1.89 3.3
5 Marcin Gortat, C WSH 9 32.8 22 2.4 15 1.7 3.6 1.47 2.4
6 Andrew Bogut, C GS 9 26.1 18 2.0 13 1.4 3.7 1.38 2.0

Bogut ranked 6th in assists this year. Also, look at these Centers on the list. They're all much better at scoring the ball than Bogut, other than Noah. Oops, I'm sorry. Noah also had a higher scoring average than Bogut.

I'm not going to get into the other comments because they have no merit, but I did think I could look this stat up pretty quickly.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

Pau Gasol and Tim Duncan are also better passers, though they are listed as power forwards. They also score much more than Bogut.

 

[CitySushi]

Oh Greggy...

I knew I should have refrained from "debating" you. From our Draymond vs. David Lee, and various other debates, it's clear that we don't see eye to eye.

In a perfect world, it would be great if we had Shaq or Duncan or Noah or Hakeem. But alas, we have Bogut. And what my main point has been is that he doesn't need to be anything other than what he is.

The fundamental difference in our thinking is that I value the team as a whole. With all it's moving parts, how the team reacts, our goals and game planning. You seem to focus on individuals and what they can or cannot do. David Lee should play, because he can score in the post. Andrew Bogut is going to cost us a series or championship because he can't score. How about how they interact with the other 4 guys on the court?

I would love to have a shot blocking, great passing, post move having, defensive rebounding monster center. I really would. If you could come up with a checklist of things a center could do, how many would Bogut truly mark for you? It's the old 80/20 rule. You always want the 20% you don't have while never valuing the 80% you do.

There are any number of things that could cost us a series or a championship. This could go to each player down the roster:

Curry - turnovers
Klay - bad shots
Barnes - disappear
Draymond - foul trouble/outside shooting
Bogut - scoring
Iguodala - freethrow shooting
Livingston - no outside shooting
Lee - no defense
etc......


I didn't "refute" any of your comments in the second post, but merely pointed out inconsistencies with your argument. I answered pretty much everything in my first post, but you seemed to ignore most of that. I will say, you seem to take the interesting stances when it comes to the Warriors. Keeps it interesting for me, around here.

 

[CitySushi]

Last thing. I will concede to your stance on the Bogut issue if you can answer three questions:

1) what type of offense do the warriors run?

2) what is the center's role within that offense?

3) how does Bogut not fill those responsibilities?

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

I'm sorry. You want to give me a couple of questions so as to set up a situation where you can win the debate? That's laughable. This all started because I said that Bogut shouldn't be passing the ball 20-25 feet away from the goal when he's got the ball 2 feet from the rim. Bogut's bad FT shooting has him hesitant to shoot the ball, so he ends up looking rather foolishly by passing the ball when he's 7 feet tall and he's got the basketball right where a 7 footer wants it...right by the goal. You made this simple issue all murky with tons of other issues rather than just admitting "yeah, he should shoot the ball then."

Later.

 

[CitySushi]

I'm sorry. You want to give me a couple of questions so as to set up a situation where you can win the debate? That's laughable. This all started because I said that Bogut shouldn't be passing the ball 20-25 feet away from the goal when he's got the ball 2 feet from the rim. Bogut's bad FT shooting has him hesitant to shoot the ball, so he ends up looking rather foolishly by passing the ball when he's 7 feet tall and he's got the basketball right where a 7 footer wants it...right by the goal. You made this simple issue all murky with tons of other issues rather than just admitting "yeah, he should shoot the ball then."

Later.

What's laughable is that your innocuous stance on "Bogut should shoot better" was fine.

Literally no one disagreed with you.

We just pointed out that it's not his job to score, and for some reason that set you on an apeshit style rant. It's weird. At no time did anyone say it wouldn't be great if Bogut could score. I'll repeat it again...NO ONE SAID IT WOULDN'T BE GREAT IF BOGUT COULDN'T SCORE. You then took it a step further and began to shit all over Bogut and any worth he has to the team. Ultimately, by your comments, you believe him to be useless.

What's strange to me is that at no point were you able to seriously view any of my comments objectively. You seemed to just look at the comments I made as attacks on you because....well I really have no idea. Maybe you really didn't read any of my responses? Considering I agreed with your initial premise, I have no idea how it got this deep(that's what she said). Anyways, escalation is on you my friend.

Also, I wasn't trying to "win the debate" with the questions. I just honestly wanted to see what you, as a Warriors fan saw. I just couldn't understand you not seeing any value in our Center. Feel free to answer those if you'd like. Or ignore. No biggie.


GO WARRIORS!

 

[koblix]

What's laughable is that your innocuous stance on "Bogut should shoot better" was fine.

Literally no one disagreed with you.

We just pointed out that it's not his job to score, and for some reason that set you on an apeshit style rant. It's weird. At no time did anyone say it wouldn't be great if Bogut could score. I'll repeat it again...NO ONE SAID IT WOULDN'T BE GREAT IF BOGUT COULDN'T SCORE. You then took it a step further and began to shit all over Bogut and any worth he has to the team. Ultimately, by your comments, you believe him to be useless.

What's strange to me is that at no point were you able to seriously view any of my comments objectively. You seemed to just look at the comments I made as attacks on you because....well I really have no idea. Maybe you really didn't read any of my responses? Considering I agreed with your initial premise, I have no idea how it got this deep(that's what she said). Anyways, escalation is on you my friend.

Also, I wasn't trying to "win the debate" with the questions. I just honestly wanted to see what you, as a Warriors fan saw. I just couldn't understand you not seeing any value in our Center. Feel free to answer those if you'd like. Or ignore. No biggie.


GO WARRIORS!

I can't believe that some of you are complaining about Bogut. We could have end up with Superman Howard if you recalled what had happened last summer. Let's hope that the Dubs will wrap tonight....Just don't choke like the Clippers.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

"Bogut should shoot better"

Hey, CityS, when you can't even quote me accurately (see above), I'll just rest my case.

And, why are my posts "rants" as opposed to yours? Our posts are about the same length, neither of us is cursing the other. We're just having a discussion and we seem to have a general disagreement. Neither of us seems interested in backing down or giving the other one any credit, so we'll have to just leave it at that. We're both trying to make our points, and to say that one of us is "ranting" or "escalating on" while the other is, I guess, "the adult" is silly and I'd think you'd find it hard to sell that argument.

"Considering I agreed with your initial premise, I have no idea how it got this deep"

Finally, I failed to see where you agreed with anything that I said. If you did, you might want to copy something that you said (not restate or paraphrase it, but actually copy your exact words from a previous post). Maybe I didn't catch you agreeing with me. Or, don't bother with it. It's no big deal at this point. We both love the Warriors. Let's move on.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

"I can't believe that some of you are complaining about Bogut."

I certainly recognize what kind of team we'd be without Bogut. I simply dared to say that he should shoot the ball when he has it in his hands 2-4 feet from the goal. Then "things" erupted. God forgive me.